In re: Delete, Delete, Delete FCC looks to eliminate rules and regulations

[kb9mwr]

I don't disagree that the FCC seems to move at something less than glacial speed. However, they've been charged by Congress with the job of managing telecommunications in the US. Until and unless Congress steps in, the FCC is what it is.

It's easy for us, as amateur radio operators, to think that the FCC is doing us a disservice. But, we have to understand that we are but a small pea in a large pod. And, given the current climate in the administrative branch, it may be best for amateur radio to lay low and not make waves. Wouldn't want a twenty-something, small-government, young Republican interning as an FCC Commissioner's aide to look at amateur radio and say "What's that? Can we sell it?"

Well now that we are paying fees again I feel we are entitled to some service from them. If we cannot. then I say we sales pitch taking all the administration burden off their plate. I hear what you are saying about not making waves and all, but that isn't helping to keep ham radio relevant in terms of current technology. Most of the bands are protected by international treaty or the fact that we are not the primary users. So "just selling it" is not that simple. Our whole existence is spelled out in our very dated basis and purpose. Read the current wording and what Bruce Perens wrote in 2017, and then you should see why we need real changes.

 

[mmckenna]

This is a rather long thread so I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out. I would like to see the limit of 4 watts on CB and SSB lifted once and for all. There are several reasons for this.

1) The enforcement arm of the FCC has been virtually non-existent for years so why not lift the regulation and decriminalize the actions of thousands of hobbyists who currently exceed the 4 watt limit, but are otherwise not harming anyone?

"not harming anyone"
OK, maybe not harming a person, but one of the issues was that overpowered/sloppy CB's used to cause a lot of headaches to over the air television. Not quite an issue to OTA TV anymore, but the issue remains. "Golden Screwdriver'd" radios run into a crappy amp splattering noise all over the band making communications more difficult.

If one wanted the FCC (and others) to look upon CB a bit more favorably when it comes to increasing power limits, one should probably put a bit more effort/money into making sure emissions stay within the channels. In other words, with more power should come more requirements for spectral purity. That means that CB that Bubba down in the single wide behind the truck stop "peaked and tuned" isn't helping. One of the reasons many of us moved to GMRS was to get away from the constant noise created by these RF wonders.

2) CB was recently authorized for FM and since the FCC is content with allowing people to use 50 watt GMRS Radio on FM frequency without any real license ( yes there is a fee, but no test of knowledge so it's just a money grab ) why not allow CB to go above 4 watts on AM / FM and and also lift the 12 watt ceiling on SSB?

CB was originally designed to be a short range radio service. 50 watts on UHF covers pretty well line of sight. 50 watts on 27MHz with favorable atmospheric conditions can cover much more range and impact more users.
Idea was to share the limited number of channels, not let a few high power stations control entire parts of the country.

3) Contrary to everything you hear people say on the web, CB radio sales and usage are on the rise ( Global CB Radio Supply, Demand and Key Producers, 2024-2030--GlobalInfoResearch ) ( $218.4 Million CB Radio Market Expansion by 2025: Key Insights from the U.S.,...) ( CB Radio Market 2025 To 2033 | Research Report ). CB usage is increasing more than any other radio service and the availability of Export Radios have helped contribute to the renewed interest in CB Radio. I think people like the ease of use, lower entry cost and the anonymity of use.

OK, good points. But how does changing the rules impact any of this?
CB absolutely has its place, and should continue to be an option for those who want it.
But I don't think changing FCC rules to allow export radios is the answer. Sure, change the existing rules to free it up a bit, but not eliminate the rules. The FCC Rules are there for a very good reason, and that's to allow everyone to share a resource.

Allowing FM was a great start, and should have been done 40 years ago. Why not add digital, if we are wishing on the RF stars?

Ham licensing is on the decline ( if you don't believe me read the article Static On The Airwaves: Understanding The Drop In U.S. Amateur Radio Operators...) and I believe that were it not for the increased power available on GMRS, people would not be gravitating to it. Even at that there are only 125,000 GMRS licenses in the U.S. If CB were allowed even 25 watts on AM/FM and SSB people would flock to it let alone 50 watts.

Not sure I agree with all of what you are saying here.

Amateur radio may be on the decline. It lost its relevance and lost its way.
GMRS has always had its place, and I doubt it's hurting CB in any way. If anything, it gives people more options, and more options are usually a good thing.
I used to use CB, but got tired of the noise, interference and people.
GMRS gave us nice wideband FM with clean audio, UHF band which gave favorable performance in the environment I needed, and a high efficiency antenna in a lot smaller package. The licensing structure made more sense for family use, one of the original intents of the service. It wasn't really intended to be a challenger to CB. FM and the use of coded squelch made it useful for families or small businesses that needed something that was quiet and not a hobby radio service.

I doubt increasing CB to 25 watts would result in any large migration of users off GMRS to CB. It's not a competition. The radio services have some considerable differences that that make them both useful for the right users.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for CB radio being there as a resource for those that need it. But it's not the end game communications tool for everyone.

So stop the money grab with the GMRS license fee and raise the output for Citizens Band across the board. This is supposed to be a free country and we deserve to have a better Free Radio Service than the current law allows for "Citizens Band". The FCC has already given it's implied consent by declining to enforce current law, so why not just cut the cord and change the law?

The GMRS license fee works out to something like 1¢ a day. I doubt that's really making an impact on anything. What it does do is tell the FCC that there are people that are serious about using that radio service.
The FCC toyed around with moving GMRS to license by rule about a decade back. Enough people spoke up that they never carried through with that. The serious GMRS users wanted to keep it the way it was, and not have it turn into another free for all radio service.


As for FCC declining to enforce current law, that's not entirely accurate. They have acted on GMRS, ham and CB users, and continue to do so. It's not a huge focus of their operations, as it's not really a big issue. Anyway, if they wanted to clean up radio services, it would be helpful if they'd act on some of the following:
Kilowatt CB stations making it difficult for the average user to use a public radio service.
Golden Screwdriver techs that result in CB's splattering across many channels.
Hams that think their 35 question multiple choice test gives them access to public safety radio systems.

 

[kc2asb]

So stop the money grab with the GMRS license fee and raise the output for Citizens Band across the board. This is supposed to be a free country and we deserve to have a better Free Radio Service than the current law allows for "Citizens Band". The FCC has already given it's implied consent by declining to enforce current law, so why not just cut the cord and change the law?

You make some interesting points. You are correct that the FCC has largely given up enforcement on the CB band. Perhaps they will still go after particularly obnoxious offenders if enough complaints are received, but the average operator running a bit of extra power and/or using out-of-band frequencies is largely left alone.

In essence, CB'ers have everything they could possibly want now - use of export rigs that can be easily purchased and modified which allow for both increased power and out-of-band operation, "shooting" skip, and an FCC that leaves them alone for the most part. I don't see the FCC codifying their capitulation into the law. The status quo is not so bad, IMHO.

 

[mmckenna]

In essence, CB'ers have everything they could possibly want now - use of export rigs that can be easily purchased and modified which allow for both increased power and out-of-band operation, "shooting" skip, and an FCC that leaves them alone for the most part. I don't see the FCC codifying their capitulation into the law. The status quo is not so bad, IMHO.

I've said this before.
CB became the padded cell of the radio world. I'm kind of happy the FCC has let it be. If someone doesn't/can't play well with others (not generalizing all CB'er's, just those few), then having a safe place where they can generally do what they want (within reason) and say off the other bands, is a useful thing.

Adding/changing the rules isn't going to alter what CB currently is. Those that want to run more power already do so. I doubt legalities are really standing in the way. Thanks to Amazon/E-Bay, the higher power radios are readily available and I doubt anyone is consulting Part 95 rules before purchasing them.

 

[IC-R20]

A lot of rules for other services have no application to ham radio. This order is about technical regs, so things like data rates are being examined, which is an amateur radio concern.

Removing the 128 kilobit cap would be nice so I could finally use broadband data on 1.2ghz and 900.

 

[AK9R]

Well now that we are paying fees again I feel we are entitled to some service from them.

You are getting service for your fee. They are processing your application. It's an application fee, not a license fee.

Most of the bands are protected by international treaty or the fact that we are not the primary users. So "just selling it" is not that simple.

Remember the dust-up a year or so ago about the high-speed stock traders wanting to use data radios on HF? Their original proposal asked for a wide swath of spectrum including the 20m amateur band. FCC staffers were going to let that sail through the approval process. BTW, the FCC hasn't acted on that proposal, either.

 

[kc2asb]

Remember the dust-up a year or so ago about the high-speed stock traders wanting to use data radios on HF? Their original proposal asked for a wide swath of spectrum including the 20m amateur band. FCC staffers were going to let that sail through the approval process. BTW, the FCC hasn't acted on that proposal, either.

Obviously, these signals would travel well beyond our borders on 20m. How would this have worked with international treaties, ITU, etc?

 

[MrSpock11A2B]

I've said this before.
CB became the padded cell of the radio world. I'm kind of happy the FCC has let it be. If someone doesn't/can't play well with others (not generalizing all CB'er's, just those few), then having a safe place where they can generally do what they want (within reason) and say off the other bands, is a useful thing.

Adding/changing the rules isn't going to alter what CB currently is. Those that want to run more power already do so. I doubt legalities are really standing in the way. Thanks to Amazon/E-Bay, the higher power radios are readily available and I doubt anyone is consulting Part 95 rules before purchasing them.

A fair enough statement. There are some real "A Holes" on CB, but I have watched videos on youtube produced by Ham radio guys who say there are "A Holes" on Ham as well. I can't say that because I am not a licensed Ham, but I'M sure there are fewer of them on Ham than on CB. That having been said, I like the anonymity and nostalgia of CB and I don't think I would ever run a 1000 watt amplifier like some of these guys. I do however, appreciate the extra wattage that these export radios offer. It's enough to give you decent range without going crazy to the point of covering everyone local and I think most of the decent people on CB would probably just embrace the extra wattage provided by the stock export radio and leave it at that. I know I would. I have no desire to use GMRS, but I had been thinking about studying for the Ham exam. Then I watched a video on one of the youtube channels I follow. The guy is very knowledgeable and never talks down to his audience. This particular video was about why it might make more sense to go the SSB route than investing in Ham equipment ( watch ). His point was, he had been a licensed Ham for many years and wound up letting it expire because he was up in the mountains of North Carolina and said it was dead up there and he was too far away to hit a repeater. His words not mine. So he felt that for the money you need to get into Ham, you get an SSB setup for much less and talk a good distance.

Hey look at the end of the day, If you are a licensed Ham, you're a true radio operator have a decent amount a knowledge and you adhere to the rules and I respect that. But, I just feel that as a society we have gotten so wrapped up in smart phones, bluetooth, live streaming, social media, etc. There is just something nostalgic about CB that takes me back to a simpler time and my first pickup truck. Yes, I have to listen to the same idiots on certain channels trash talking each other on my ride home, but I also, have some real decent guys that I converse with on a regular basis and I am here in NYC. I can't wait to take a nice road trip and see who I can connect with in the heartland where cell service isn't always so great.

 

[MUTNAV]

I've said this before.
CB became the padded cell of the radio world. I'm kind of happy the FCC has let it be. If someone doesn't/can't play well with others (not generalizing all CB'er's, just those few), then having a safe place where they can generally do what they want (within reason) and say off the other bands, is a useful thing.

Adding/changing the rules isn't going to alter what CB currently is. Those that want to run more power already do so. I doubt legalities are really standing in the way. Thanks to Amazon/E-Bay, the higher power radios are readily available and I doubt anyone is consulting Part 95 rules before purchasing them.

I agree with almost all of what you're saying, with the caveat that, although it's good to have a place to let crazy people play. I don't care for it to become one of those arrangements where the "Rioters are given space" (as if the internet weren't enough).

Maybe enough enforcement to keep some people productively engaged would be good, and let people know that they COULD get busted. Which is pretty much what we have now.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

A fair enough statement. There are some real "A Holes" on CB, but I have watched videos on youtube produced by Ham radio guys who say there are "A Holes" on Ham as well. I can't say that because I am not a licensed Ham, but I'M sure there are fewer of them on Ham than on CB.

I can promise you there are a LOT of A-Holes on the amateur radio bands. A lot. There is nothing magical about a 35 question multiple choice test that effectively screens them out. In fact, it does create a weird sense of entitlement.

That having been said, I like the anonymity and nostalgia of CB and I don't think I would ever run a 1000 watt amplifier like some of these guys. I do however, appreciate the extra wattage that these export radios offer. It's enough to give you decent range without going crazy to the point of covering everyone local and I think most of the decent people on CB would probably just embrace the extra wattage provided by the stock export radio and leave it at that. I know I would.

I think you'd find that a lot of hams over about 40 years old got their feet wet with a CB at a young age. I did, and I know many others that did.
In fact, if you start talking to people in the two way radio industry, you'll find that many of them were very active CB'ers, scanner listeners, short wave listeners, etc.

I have no desire to use GMRS, but I had been thinking about studying for the Ham exam. Then I watched a video on one of the youtube channels I follow. The guy is very knowledgeable and never talks down to his audience. This particular video was about why it might make more sense to go the SSB route than investing in Ham equipment ( watch ). His point was, he had been a licensed Ham for many years and wound up letting it expire because he was up in the mountains of North Carolina and said it was dead up there and he was too far away to hit a repeater. His words not mine. So he felt that for the money you need to get into Ham, you get an SSB setup for much less and talk a good distance.

That is something that many find to be true. You'll also find that some hams really like to pressure people into getting their license. There's a lot of good options out there, and finding what works is key.

Hey look at the end of the day, If you are a licensed Ham, you're a true radio operator have a decent amount a knowledge and you adhere to the rules and I respect that.

Amateur radio operators really run the spectrum. There are many that study the answers so they can pass the multiple choice test, then there are those that really put the effort into it to learn. After almost 40 years of having an amateur radio license, my experience is that just because someone has a ham ticket doesn't mean they know anything. It just means they passed the test. I've run accross CB'ers that had more knowledge than many hams.

But, I just feel that as a society we have gotten so wrapped up in smart phones, bluetooth, live streaming, social media, etc. There is just something nostalgic about CB that takes me back to a simpler time and my first pickup truck. Yes, I have to listen to the same idiots on certain channels trash talking each other on my ride home, but I also, have some real decent guys that I converse with on a regular basis and I am here in NYC. I can't wait to take a nice road trip and see who I can connect with in the heartland where cell service isn't always so great.

I hear you. I grew up with CB, first two way radio in my vehicle was a CB. It's a great tool, just no longer the right/enjoyable tool for me.

 

[mmckenna]

Maybe enough enforcement to keep some people productively engaged would be good, and let people know that they COULD get busted. Which is pretty much what we have now.

I concur. FCC does periodically bust some individual CB'er that isn't bright enough to know when to stop. Doesn't happen often enough. Since I no longer play in that arena, I don't really care too much what they do, just as long as it stays where it belongs.

 

[kc2asb]

I can promise you there are a LOT of A-Holes on the amateur radio bands. A lot. There is nothing magical about a 35 question multiple choice test that effectively screens them out. In fact, it does create a weird sense of entitlement.

I completely agree. Plenty of them on the amateur bands. Listen to 14313kHz, 7200kHz and 80m on a regular basis. Also, a couple of 40m nets that I monitor are jammed regularly - someone intentionally tuning up on the net freq, noisemakers, music, etc. You would think it is CB.

MUTNAV said:
Maybe enough enforcement to keep some people productively engaged would be good, and let people know that they COULD get busted. Which is pretty much what we have now.

Agreed. This is exactly the balance needed.

 

[mmckenna]

I completely agree. Plenty of them on the amateur bands. Listen to 14313kHz, 7200kHz and 80m on a regular basis.

…or just about any VHF or UHF repeater if a new ham gets on there and:
-Makes the slightest error
-Doesn't bow down before the older hams
-Does anything that the sad hams can pounce on to put the new ham in their rightful place.

Had a ham do that to my wife shortly after getting her license. I'll let you guess what my wife's opinion was of said ham….


But we're going to get in trouble with the Headcheese if we wander too far off topic...

CB, GMRS, MURS, FRS, Part 15, Amateur radio, they all have their place, and there is no one "better" radio service. People just need to find what works for them. The FCC needs to provide some level of rule enforcement to keep things sane. We have far too many entitled pr!¢ks that think otherwise. FCC does OK, but it'll never be good enough for the rabid fans of the <fill in the blank> radio service.

I like that FCC focuses on things other than some ham that accidentally ID's at 11 minutes instead of exactly 10. There's a lot for the FCC to handle, and slashing the workforce isn't going to help anyone that matters to me.

 

[kb9mwr]

You are getting service for your fee. They are processing your application. It's an application fee, not a license fee.

Remember the dust-up a year or so ago about the high-speed stock traders wanting to use data radios on HF? Their original proposal asked for a wide swath of spectrum including the 20m amateur band. FCC staffers were going to let that sail through the approval process. BTW, the FCC hasn't acted on that proposal, either.

Anybody can petition for anything. It doesn't mean anything. As pointed out this likely didn't go anywhere because it would impact the spectrum outside of the USA... Again international treaties are our saving grace in this case Not the FCC. And certainly not the ARRL.

 

[DaveNF2G]

It's about money at all points. Crappy splattery "export" (actually import) radios are here because they are cheap. Other entities besides the FCC could fix that by ensuring that such equipment does not enter the country, if they cared.

 

[kc2asb]

It's about money at all points. Crappy splattery "export" (actually import) radios are here because they are cheap. Other entities besides the FCC could fix that by ensuring that such equipment does not enter the country, if they cared.

Exactly. Back in the late 80's into the 90's, there were regular news pieces in Popular Communications about the FCC busting a dealer selling these export(import) radios. Even then, before Amazon and Ali Express, they could not stop it.

 

[Baylink]

Wandered in late... but I'd like to hear what some people think about finally elimanating the analog-cellular scanner block, since we, y'know, haven't had analog cellular in 30 years or so.

 

[kc2asb]

Wandered in late... but I'd like to hear what some people think about finally elimanating the analog-cellular scanner block, since we, y'know, haven't had analog cellular in 30 years or so.

As I understand it, that range is still used for cellular. However, it's all digital and encrypted. There is nothing to listen to there even if it is restored.

 

[MTS2000des]

Wandered in late... but I'd like to hear what some people think about finally elimanating the analog-cellular scanner block, since we, y'know, haven't had analog cellular in 30 years or so.

The ECPA, was enacted by congress, not the FCC, first in 1986, then amended in 1994 (CALEA), and later on the USA Patriot Act, etc. All of this outside the purview of the FCC.

 

[mmckenna]

Wandered in late... but I'd like to hear what some people think about finally elimanating the analog-cellular scanner block, since we, y'know, haven't had analog cellular in 30 years or so.

I have several devices (spectrum analyzer, service monitor, specialized receivers, etc) that will cover that spectrum. It's wideband digital emissions used for LTE. Your scanner will only hear a loud buzzing and will not decode anything. Even if it did decode something, LTE is encrypted.

So, it won't do you any good to have access to that spectrum, just like it makes zero sense to specifically block it out since nothing consumer will decode any of it.

If you really want to listen to loud buzzing, buy an old electric shaver and let it run nonstop.