Major disaster comms options

[radionx]

From the things building up right now...I'd say your biggest issue might not be satellites taken out...but people. Watch the next few weeks.

By the way. In Yugoslavia the first thing they took out was all critical infrastructure, in a matter of a few hours. There were hidden pros doing this. They know exactly how to hit and when. CB was the last thing left working.

Also, you should prepare for massive emotional stress. Comms are good, but when suffering PTSD...

 

[smittie]

but when suffering PTSD...

Meh. Already there.

 

[mmckenna]

I didn't even know something like that existed, that's pretty cool.

An excellent tool. Inexpensive if you consider the options and look at the benefits.

 

[MUTNAV]

From the things building up right now...I'd say your biggest issue might not be satellites taken out...but people. Watch the next few weeks.

By the way. In Yugoslavia the first thing they took out was all critical infrastructure, in a matter of a few hours. There were hidden pros doing this. They know exactly how to hit and when. CB was the last thing left working.

Also, you should prepare for massive emotional stress. Comms are good, but when suffering PTSD...

Obtaining information about what is going on can help with emotional stress, MW and HF listening can fall into that category IMHO.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

Speaking of emergency communications. I believe Oct 4 there will be a nationwide test of the alert system around 2 PM or so. May be worthwhile to check out all of our receivers at that point.

Thanks
Joel

 

[Boombox]

Don't forget, this solar cycle will peak in 2024/2025. I live on a farm and the solar radiation will cook you in no time as compared to the 1960's when I would go without a shirt and have shorts only and barefoot. I never burned nor did I get a deep tan. Now, the temperature can be 80 degrees F and it feels like 100 to me.
Some solar scientists have speculated that we could very well have another "Carrington Event" or worse in the coming 2 years. Scientists at first thought the solar cycle 25 (current) was going to be benign, but they are since watching it very closely.

Solar cycle 25 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The UV radiation from the sun has been gradually dropping since the 2000s. Solar cycle is peaking, yes, but there's more to solar radiation than sunspot numbers. There is a chart on NASA's website, and a few studies out there showing that the actual solar radiation has dropped slightly.

 

[AB4BF]

The UV radiation from the sun has been gradually dropping since the 2000s. Solar cycle is peaking, yes, but there's more to solar radiation than sunspot numbers. There is a chart on NASA's website, and a few studies out there showing that the actual solar radiation has dropped slightly.

NASA - Never A Straight Answer. Say what you might, but I know better. My shop door faces Southwest and on bright sunny days I have to use a rag or my shirttail to open the door. My son saw me Sunday doing this and said I was getting old (just had my 69th birthday) so I said you open it. He burnt his hand. Even the barbed wire gets hot. I have 50 gallon tubs for the horses and one can almost see the water evaporate. I have to keep them topped off 3 or 4 times a day in addition to what the horses suck up. So yeah global warming or some such nonsense. All my farm implements, even the light colored ones, get extremely hot on a sunny day. I pray for cloudy or lightly rainy days to get some work done. Couldn't be solar radiation, could it?

 

[Boombox]

NASA - Never A Straight Answer. Say what you might, but I know better. My shop door faces Southwest and on bright sunny days I have to use a rag or my shirttail to open the door. My son saw me Sunday doing this and said I was getting old (just had my 69th birthday) so I said you open it. He burnt his hand. Even the barbed wire gets hot. I have 50 gallon tubs for the horses and one can almost see the water evaporate. I have to keep them topped off 3 or 4 times a day in addition to what the horses suck up. So yeah global warming or some such nonsense. All my farm implements, even the light colored ones, get extremely hot on a sunny day. I pray for cloudy or lightly rainy days to get some work done. Couldn't be solar radiation, could it?

Say what you want about NASA. The data is valid.

And there are different types of solar radiation. The sun doesn't just produce one kind.

Heat rays, that you are describing, are infrared. I am talking about the UV radiation chart, based on actual solar data.

UV, which affects the ionosphere, is a different frequency, and different form of radiation than the results of infrared radiation you are describing. And UV radiation is dropping, and has been since the mid 1990s. It's a gradual drop, but it's real, it's based on very real data.

 

[wenzeslaus]

Best advice...

If we ever get into the situation where we're going to have to cope with the effects of an EMP, we're going to have a lot more to worry about. Any EMP detonation is going to be accompanied by other actions closer to home. You may not even have time to bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

maybe, maybe not. effects would be devastating. they could do it and leave it at that. of course things could rapidly escalate from there. so it is a possibility that EMP is all we get.

 

[wenzeslaus]

My suggestion: make sure you have a working AM, FM, SW radio. Being able to hear information will be more important than talking to people, at least in the short term.

If an EMP hits, it may not strike the entire country to the same extent -- depending on altitude of detonation, local terrain, distance from the detonation, and other factors, of course. That means that there may be working communications infrastructure in parts of the country that could be heard in other parts of the country that were more affected by the EMP. So, in my view, a working receiver would be probably more important for communications, at least short term, than being able to talk to someone.

I think it would be more important to have spare food, medicine, etc., and a means to protect one's self and one's family than radio or other communications. You can't eat a radio.

yes food/medicine/etc is more important, but I think a radio is a cheap and easy to get necessity also. you need to know what the heck is going on.

but I have a question about listening to radio in the event of an EMP or nuc war, wiith the ionosphere saturated (EMP) and millions of tons of dust in the air (nuc) would shortwave become impossible to listen to? how about long AM?

or do I need to start a new topic about that

 

[wenzeslaus]

Has there ever been an EMP event other than tests?

Test 184, Soviet, 1962. 180 mi altitude, 180 mi west of Gazaghan, Kazakhstan. 300 kT.

Electromagnetic Pulse - Soviet Test 184 - EMP

Electromagnetic Pulse Test 184

www.futurescience.com

 

[smittie]

Test 184, Soviet, 1962. 180 mi altitude, 180 mi west of Gazaghan, Kazakhstan. 300 kT.

Electromagnetic Pulse - Soviet Test 184 - EMP

Electromagnetic Pulse Test 184

www.futurescience.com

"...other than tests?"

 

[wenzeslaus]

"...other than tests?"

oh yes, you're right. a test over an actual, uninformed, unsuspecting, unprepared civilian population isn't the real thing. we'll have to wait until it happens over an actual, uninformed, unsuspecting, unprepared civilian population.

 

[smittie]

oh yes, you're right. a test over an actual, uninformed, unsuspecting, unprepared civilian population isn't the real thing. we'll have to wait until it happens over an actual, uninformed, unsuspecting, unprepared civilian population.

The point being, I'm going to spend my time, effort and resources preparing for the catastrophic events that happen on a regular basis.

 

[wenzeslaus]

The point being, I'm going to spend my time, effort and resources preparing for the catastrophic events that happen on a regular basis.

?? okay you do what you want, nothing wrong with that

 

[MUTNAV]

I'm kind of wondering why we are so focused on EMP, since the idea of the discussion is communications options in a major disaster.

For the record, regarding EMP, I read in the 1980's that the soviet strategy was an EMP Lay-down, which would consist of a large number of nukes at high altitude to take care of just about everything. This would be more like a Greek bronze age collapse event (not even the written language survived it).

Maybe it would be appropriate to redirect our conversation/ discussion to Communications in a major disaster, where it could make a difference.

The questions I would pose are

1. Who does a person want communications with

2. What do they want to communicate along with what do they expect out of the communications.

3. How long do they expect the disaster related communications to last



Thanks
Joel

Oh.... My answers

1. My family, both locally and extended in the local area, and across the region
Neighbors
People / organizations with information that could be useful


2. That I and the people around me are ok, or .
How and where to rendezvous with immediate family
Whether we need to relocate to in another area (other family members houses etc...)
Where resources are available, if any ( open gas stations/ grocery stores, restaurants etc... )

3. Power / water is likely to be restored when, fire efforts rediverted to where and when?
When will the local area get help etc...

These answers overlap considerably, but just complaining about the great collapse / end of the world isn't as productive towards an all around major disaster communications idea.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

oh yes, you're right. a test over an actual, uninformed, unsuspecting, unprepared civilian population isn't the real thing. we'll have to wait until it happens over an actual, uninformed, unsuspecting, unprepared civilian population.

OR use simulators to test items to see what is likely to survive and not survive.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

yes food/medicine/etc is more important, but I think a radio is a cheap and easy to get necessity also. you need to know what the heck is going on.

but I have a question about listening to radio in the event of an EMP or nuc war, wiith the ionosphere saturated (EMP) and millions of tons of dust in the air (nuc) would shortwave become impossible to listen to? how about long AM?

or do I need to start a new topic about that

A single EMP event and a nuc war are different, one of the big threats with EMP is that small terror/criminal organizations could initiate an EMP strike (maybe on the scale of the Quebec power outage?)(no fallout, no radioactive dust.)

Even a nuke war can vary from a single event/planted weapon (as in the NCR plan in an earlier post) to global thermonuclear war.

(ok maybe they could both be either small or large) /\/\/\

In a general sense, even stupid level accidents could cause problems for communications, like an anti-satellite test that sets off a cascade of debris spreading events, (debris from the test causing MORE debris.)

Over dependence on satallites is one of the reasons that troposcatter (modern tropo sets are relativly small compared to the past) and HF are making a little bit of a comeback, as well as celestial navigation with sextants (although in a practical sense, celestial navigation with modern sensors and computers seem like a real and reasonable proposition).

Thanks
Joel

 

[wenzeslaus]

I'm kind of wondering why we are so focused on EMP, since the idea of the discussion is communications options in a major disaster.

well there's disasters which are local or regional, and there's EMP which covers the entire USA and parts of Canada and Mexico and causes arguably worse damage.

if an actual modern EMP attack works as advertised, it would shut down the whole country. no gas/oil, no food delivery trucks, no electricity to radio stations, water towers, hospitals, fire/police/ambulance.

anywhere.

and it would last for years because the main transformers are huge, heavy and expensive, and we currently only have 1 facility that manufactures them while there are 360 or so in the country that would need replaced, and that facility may or may not be left with electricity to make more.

EMP is the elephant in the room.

if you are prepared for EMP you are mostly prepared for anything else.

 

[wenzeslaus]

A single EMP event and a nuc war are different, one of the big threats with EMP is that small terror/criminal organizations could initiate an EMP strike (maybe on the scale of the Quebec power outage?)(no fallout, no radioactive dust.)

Even a nuke war can vary from a single event/planted weapon (as in the NCR plan in an earlier post) to global thermonuclear war.

(ok maybe they could both be either small or large) /\/\/\

In a general sense, even stupid level accidents could cause problems for communications, like an anti-satellite test that sets off a cascade of debris spreading events, (debris from the test causing MORE debris.)

Over dependence on satallites is one of the reasons that troposcatter (modern tropo sets are relativly small compared to the past) and HF are making a little bit of a comeback, as well as celestial navigation with sextants (although in a practical sense, celestial navigation with modern sensors and computers seem like a real and reasonable proposition).

Thanks
Joel

right, so, if the ionosphere is saturated and/or there are millions of tons of dust in the atmosphere, could I still get reception on SW and long dx AM?