MotoTRBO and similar systems in Alberta

[kayn1n32008]

Yes, I saw that. They're just a radio comms company though, aren't they?

I'm interested in figuring out the end user.



Have you monitored the freq Harry? You think it is part of a trunked system?

Take a look at TAFL for that frequency, and see what else is licensed under the same Callsign, if it is, then it is probably part of a trunk system.


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[harryshute]

WCI is a comms company that does sell radio time to numerous end users. They also maintain the Edmonton Public Safety EDACS system. They also run a company owned 800 MHz EDACS trunked system.

 

[harryshute]

The license for the Saskatchewan Drive tower VDG 918 shows various 800 MHz and UHF frequencies. 451.125 does show subcriber mobiles (trunking). Don't know if the other UHF frequencies are trunked with this one but the spread of frequencies isn't what I'd expect of a normal UHF trunked system.

I haven't monitored it as my DSD project has bogged down over the past few months.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Cenovus Foster Creek has started to convert from analogue VHF to UHF linked capacity plus. Although the off high grade VHF repeaters are still analogue VHF, the plant/field ops are/will use TRBO. I also believe majority of Cenovus sites will be going to TRBO as well.


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[robertmac]

In Calgary 454.275 now has darn TRBO noise on it drowning out other users. Frequency search shows it licensed to a number of cinemas, golf courses and others that use simplex. Transport Canada at the airport shows digital, but not certain if that is it. Don't listen to this frequency that much so no great loss if I have to lock it out, or change to the new airport frequencies.

 

[SCPD]

Sdr# now has a plugin for DSD+ . makes scanning for mototrbo by hear quicker then you can quickly switch over to dsd+. The plugin also has a simple GUI on it so if your not a fan of command line typing it also has that going for it . DSD+ only needs the lamemp3.DLL and not the cgywin one of dsd

 

[SCPD]

Cenovus Foster Creek has started to convert from analogue VHF to UHF linked capacity plus. Although the off high grade VHF repeaters are still analogue VHF, the plant/field ops are/will use TRBO. I also believe majority of Cenovus sites will be going to TRBO as well.


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Pretty much every greenfield major oil/gas construction site in Alberta will be digital. The new NWR site near Redwater just turned up their multi channel site construction radio system all digital.

 

[SCPD]

I have been able to decode dmr/ mototrbo well with DSD+ and SDR sharp. However just parking on a frequency it seems Im getting random bits of conversation. So I'm 99% I'm just getting random parts of a trunked system. Does any one know any trunked dmr systems in the Edmonton area? Is there any programs that handle mototrbo/dmr trunking similar to unitrunker?

 

[harryshute]

U of A Campus Patrol is on a UHF trunked digital system. Are you checking the frequencies you are questioning on Spectrum Direct or some other TAFL search? As there are two slots for each frequency you would need a program or device that would handle it similar to the P25 Phase 2 scanners.

 

[SCPD]

I have started to use the TAFL to search . however sometimes I notice frequency's will be under a faraway place and just have something like (Edmonton ) under the name . I Have thought of getting one of thouse cheap hand held dmr radios ( cs700) as people have been able from what I understand to Rx only on them . I do not know if they can handle trunking . seeing as many companies seem to be going this direction $200 isn't a super high cost.

 

[robertmac]

Sorry if this has been posted, did search on this thread and didn't get any results. 451.7375 has had digital for the last couple of weeks. A search indicates this could be Flames organization at the Saddledome. But it is much stronger in the north part of Calgary than the south [? antenna orientation if coming from Saddledome].

 

[robertmac]

This afternoon while at YYC and scanning, just because, heard TRBO on 462.55 and 462.6375. I am not sure if TRBO is allowed on FRS in Canada. The 462.55 signal was not too strong but the 462.6375 was certainly coming from near the north part of the airport.

 

[TRENT310]

Pretty much every greenfield major oil/gas construction site in Alberta will be digital. The new NWR site near Redwater just turned up their multi channel site construction radio system all digital.

Yep I'm seeing that too... lately I've been setting up quite a few XPR8400s in UHF for plant sites and MTR3000s on VHF for wide area coverage.

You can reboot the Moto subscriber units (portables/mobiles) in diagnostic mode, pair to it over bluetooth (on any TRBO 2.0 model so equipped with a BT chipset) and read the over the air information when the channel is busy, and piece together the timeslot, colour code, call ID info to be able to monitor unknown systems. There are a few other undocumented features on the higher tier models (such as the XPR5550 and 7550) which allow them to be a good tool for radio techs. I don't always have to pull out the test set to get an idea of RSSI in a particular location, by pressing left-left-left-right-right-right on the directional arrow pad it brings up a screen showing such info.

The DMR-capable CP...d and CM...d series do NOT support connect plus trunking but even the low end XPR series do, when so equipped with the appropriate keycode.

 

[Jay911]

Pretty much every greenfield major oil/gas construction site in Alberta will be digital

Stands to reason.. I've done no real serious assessment of the data but O&G has a staggering amount of the bandwidth across the province in the LMR bands. Putting their plant/site comms on narrowband or multislot frequencies only makes sense.

Trent - or anyone else who knows - I presume DMR/TRBO/NXDN is capable of carrying data (telemetry, etc) on one or both slots of a frequency?

 

[kayn1n32008]

Stands to reason.. I've done no real serious assessment of the data but O&G has a staggering amount of the bandwidth across the province in the LMR bands. Putting their plant/site comms on narrowband or multislot frequencies only makes sense.

It is staggering. A good chunk of it is for SCADA.

Trent - or anyone else who knows - I presume DMR/TRBO/NXDN is capable of carrying data (telemetry, etc) on one or both slots of a frequency?

The big shift in SCADA I am seeing in my travels is from LMR to cellular for data backhaul.

Although I do not personally know of any SCADA going over DMR/NXDN, I imagine it is capable, as DMR already incorporates GPS data for AVL I would expect to to be pretty easy to use DMR to provide a link for SCADA.

Probably a typo but NXDN is FDMA only.


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[TRENT310]

The DMR standard allows for carrying additional payload data and you can assign a dedicated timeslot for that purpose or set it to a "best effort" basis whenever it can slip in a message between transmissions. All depends on the application as to which is more suitable... but to most SCADA systems, "best effort" is not acceptable and hence the continued widespread use of dedicated 25kHz channels.
There are still lots of data gathering sites out there keyed up 100% 24x7, +50dBm blasting out Bell 202 1200 baud messages, although many newer systems I'm putting in are key-on-data with only 5W TPO or ISM spread spectrum. (It also reduces the size of the rectifier/power supply and backup battery string for the required runtime, going from close to 30A/12VDC continuous draw to an intermittent 5A/12V draw)

The tolerance is quite low for most equipment relying on this, for example 5 invalid/timeout messages back to back can bring the station into emergency shutdown on communications failure. Understandably, operators are uncomfortable with running these remote sites "blind" without control or visibility.

I played with the serial payload on the MotoTRBO radios and yes it does work... but I wouldn't be comfortable proposing such a system to an oil company for a SCADA replacement application quite yet. It does also introduce the potential for a single point of failure... now your site's fallen off the map and you can't talk to the guys who are heading out there to check it out. The GE-MDS x710/x790/SD/TransNET remain among the most common radios that I deal with out there in these applications.
Work alone systems are another thing... these new digital radios introduce possibilities to set up an automated work-alone check in system and reduce the amount of equipment installed in a vehicle - instead of needing both a mobile 2-way AND say a Mobiltex unit installed, it can all be rolled into the one mobile radio, and same for wearable electronics - instead of carrying an emergency call pendant, GPS locator (eg. SPOT/Delorme), and cell phone and making sure that all of those are Intrinsically Safe devices... plus it just fills up the coverall pockets quickly.

Many a time I show up to a site for the first time, open up their radio cabinet and I'm staring at a good old Micor, or a MASTR II.
From what I've seen, Industry Canada hasn't been really pushing the narrowbanding that much in the non-metropolitan areas, and most of these oilfield sites are classified non-metro. When you call up IC to get another site license, they hand out 16K0F1D-N or 16K0F3EJN without asking if you can run the equipment 11K0 instead.

Cellular is being used and also quickly being changed out with something else as soon as they realize that it's not reliable at all. Comes back to the "best effort is not good enough" when the companies want to have these sites running all the time. They are alright as a backup communications path, but all these Bluetree 6800/5800 and Microhard IPn3G/4G units I've put in are still susceptible to cell network conditions. I'll remember meeting up with Curtis Bidulock that one time investigating such issues.
Working on one right now too... out in Cynthia AB and the Smarthub is their only connection out of that site, opened dozens of tickets to Telus, escalating them up the tiers, the only response I can get is network loading. Well, we're going to have to look into fixed wireless from a local WISP or adding a hop to the existing microwave infrastructure.

VSAT is used in sites with no other choice, but VSAT is plagued with its own set of downfalls as well... sun transits, adverse weather, birds pecking at the BUC's feedhorn... and that it's a externally managed network. So you get the call at 2:30 AM... best you can do is turn around and phone the satellite provider's NOC and hopefully they know what they're doing. Yeah it's plugged in. Yeah the RG-11 is good. Yeah the cross-pol is good. No the dish hasn't moved. No there isn't a vehicle parked in front of the dish.

 

[harryshute]

Leduc Fire back to analog?

I see a new listing in the DB for Leduc Fire on 153.95 with a PL tone. Does that mean they have switched from Turbo back to analog?

 

[kayn1n32008]

Cellular is being used and also quickly being changed out with something else as soon as they realize that it's not reliable at all. Comes back to the "best effort is not good enough" when the companies want to have these sites running all the time. They are alright as a backup communications path, but all these Bluetree 6800/5800 and Microhard IPn3G/4G units I've put in are still susceptible to cell network conditions. I'll remember meeting up with Curtis Bidulock that one time investigating such issues.

Working on one right now too... out in Cynthia AB and the Smarthub is their only connection out of that site, opened dozens of tickets to Telus, escalating them up the tiers, the only response I can get is network loading. Well, we're going to have to look into fixed wireless from a local WISP or adding a hop to the existing microwave infrastructure.



VSAT is used in sites with no other choice, but VSAT is plagued with its own set of downfalls as well... sun transits, adverse weather, birds pecking at the BUC's feedhorn... and that it's a externally managed network. So you get the call at 2:30 AM... best you can do is turn around and phone the satellite provider's NOC and hopefully they know what they're doing. Yeah it's plugged in. Yeah the RG-11 is good. Yeah the cross-pol is good. No the dish hasn't moved. No there isn't a vehicle parked in front of the dish.

What is the thought process behind switching to cellular? I do not get why a company would want to go from a company owned network SCADA network, to relying on a cellular company for data service. To me that seems like a step backwards.

I feel for you out in Cynthia... I have spent many many days and months over the last 5 years working out there before Esso sold that field. I do not think there was many Esso leases or plant sites I did not work on in 48-10, 48-11, 49-10, 49-11, 50-10 and 50-11.

I have had lots of data/voice issues with 2G & 3G cellular out there, from poor coverage in some spots to having full signal strength but not being able to make/receive calls. Some of it is coverage deficiencies, although it is in the middle of nowhere, others I'm sure were BDA's oscillating or cell repeaters plain set up wrong.

Cellular is the last thing I would want to use for SCADA, at least with good old licensed UHF data network, you can always complain to IC if you are having interference issues... I'm sure the results would be faster than complaining to Telus...


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[SCPD]

They use cellular because cost of operation is cheaper. Doesn't make it the best option when sharing a network with the rest of the general population.

 

[omrail]

I see a new listing in the DB for Leduc Fire on 153.95 with a PL tone. Does that mean they have switched from Turbo back to analog?

From what i can tell Yes or Maybe. Yesterday I found them on the same frequency but with the new tone. About an hour ago dispatched to Millet for M/A. So for now any way there analog. I am trying to find out if the channel listed as EMS is back to analog. The old EMS was used by the full time crew as a Leduc fire ch2. i haven't heard any thing on there yet.