Need help identifying unknown talkgroups in Howard County

[baybum]

What is Sierra 1?

It's a talkgroup used for events, for example, when there's a concert at Merriweather. Mainly coordination. Under the current DB, it's one of the services talkgroups, but not certain which one. I believe it's "common 1".

 

[markgrutz]

Sierra 1 is the one labeled 911 on the current plan. The Sierra zone I believe is in part in every radio on the system.

 

[ThePhotoGuy]

The Sierra zone I believe is in part in every radio on the system.

I believe you are correct. I remember it being used during the Ellicott City Floods for Searches.

 

[maus92]

Yea, Events TGs are typically available on FD, PD and Services radio programming.

Break.

I've noticed that UT2 indicates that P2 voice access is enabled on the new system, although the channels are operating in P1 mode. Not sure why that is.

 

[Mr_Boh]

I've noticed that UT2 indicates that P2 voice access is enabled on the new system, although the channels are operating in P1 mode. Not sure why that is.

So this is something I have (for lack of a better term) gotten into arguments with db admins about. There are a couple systems in the database listed as Phase II even though every talkgroup is FDMA only. I believe the problem is because Motorola cores that have the capability (whether it's a software setting, or just cores of a certain version) will report the TDMA voice slots in the band plan, regardless of whether or not there are any configured in provisioning.

Technically a Phase II and Phase I P25 Control Channel are the same, so you could use a non-phase II scanner such as a BCD996T on a Phase II system as long as you listened to FDMA talkgroups only since the control channel is always FDMA and contains the same information. So it's kind of a "style" conversation for how we submit info to database.

 

[atlong]

Sierra 1 sounds good. How can this be entered into the db? Sierra 1 TG 11211 Desc: Common 1 or County 911? Please advise. Thanks.

 

[n1nlr]

Sierra 1 sounds good. How can this be entered into the db? Sierra 1 TG 11211 Desc: Common 1 or County 911? Please advise. Thanks.

On the existing Motorola system Sierra 1 is listed as:

34128

855

D

HoGVT - 911

County 911 Center Talkgroup

Public Works

It is the talkgroup that is used by non-public safety users to contact the dispatch center.

Most of what I hear on it seems to be the transit buses reporting issues or accidental emergency button activation.

 

[maus92]

I'm unfamiliar with HoCo ops, but the RRDB shows no relationship between "Sierra 1" and current TG 34128. I'm also unclear how we have assigned "Sierra 1" as new TG 11211 - do users make reference to "Sierra 1" and then traffic shows up on TGs 34128 / 11211? In a way it makes sense that a "County 911 Center" TG is being used, perhaps wrt testing / coordinating activities related to the new system? And a "County 911 Center" TG *might* be in use during festival / fairs / MPP performances when a mobile command post *might* be in operation?

 

[maus92]

I see no indication of Howard County's P25 control channel today. I do live quite a distance, but I can *usually* see a signal spike.

 

[n1nlr]

I'm unfamiliar with HoCo ops, but the RRDB shows no relationship between "Sierra 1" and current TG 34128. I'm also unclear how we have assigned "Sierra 1" as new TG 11211 - do users make reference to "Sierra 1" and then traffic shows up on TGs 34128 / 11211? In a way it makes sense that a "County 911 Center" TG is being used, perhaps wrt testing / coordinating activities related to the new system? And a "County 911 Center" TG *might* be in use during festival / fairs / MPP performances when a mobile command post *might* be in operation?

I can't speak for the new TG on the p25 system, but on the old tg 34128 the users do refer to it as Sierra 1 on the air quite often. Usually as a reminder to folks who have accidentally changed talkgroups on their radios. "You are on Sierra 1 do you have an emergency?"

 

[maus92]

I can't speak for the new TG on the p25 system, but on the old tg 34128 the users do refer to it as Sierra 1 on the air quite often. Usually as a reminder to folks who have accidentally changed talkgroups on their radios. "You are on Sierra 1 do you have an emergency?"

I would *think* that the RRDB should reflect "Sierra 1" in addition its current tag / label / description.

 

[atlong]

Ok, I changed the Sierra 1 TG for 34128 on the legacy system. Let's continue to monitor the 11211 TG on the new P25 system and see if it is being used for the same purpose. Then we can get it updated there.

 

[gesucks]

So this is something I have (for lack of a better term) gotten into arguments with db admins about. There are a couple systems in the database listed as Phase II even though every talkgroup is FDMA only. I believe the problem is because Motorola cores that have the capability (whether it's a software setting, or just cores of a certain version) will report the TDMA voice slots in the band plan, regardless of whether or not there are any configured in provisioning.

Technically a Phase II and Phase I P25 Control Channel are the same, so you could use a non-phase II scanner such as a BCD996T on a Phase II system as long as you listened to FDMA talkgroups only since the control channel is always FDMA and contains the same information. So it's kind of a "style" conversation for how we submit info to database.

I hate to tell you but the DB Admins are correct. If the Control Channels are broadcasting a TDMA IDEN message, then the system IS a phase 2 system. Just because the are not using the talkgroups in TDMA does not mean the system is not Phase 2. It is a simple button push to change any talkgroup to TDMA.

 

[u2brent]

I hate to tell you but the DB Admins are correct. If the Control Channels are broadcasting a TDMA IDEN message, then the system IS a phase 2 system. Just because the are not using the talkgroups in TDMA does not mean the system is not Phase 2. It is a simple button push to change any talkgroup to TDMA.

Thinking of Philadelphia??
A precedent for this argument has already been set.
If TDMA radios are not in use, nor will be in the foreseeable future; Then it just confuses anyone interested in the monitoring the system.. and should only be done if TDMA is actually in the works..
see here..
Philly PD Phase II
The DB Admins actually were swayed and took it back to PH1 because of verification of no plans to move to TDMA in the foreseeable future.

I'd wait and see.. IDK, Unless of course somebody knows something for sure..

 

[maus92]

Howard County's licensing in the FCC database indicates Phase 1 based on emission type designator, unlike the licensing for AACo's new (and some existing) frequencies which have emission type designators that indicate Phase 2.

 

[markgrutz]

I can't speak for the new TG on the p25 system, but on the old tg 34128 the users do refer to it as Sierra 1 on the air quite often. Usually as a reminder to folks who have accidentally changed talkgroups on their radios. "You are on Sierra 1 do you have an emergency?"

So some insight....

The Sierra Zone, or "County" zone as it is on the template contains 8 TG's on the current system. S1-911, S2-CNY1, S3-CNY2, S4-CNY3, S5-EOC, S6-COEX, S7-BEEM. There are also S9-14 that are simplex RINS channels. S15 is Fleet, and S16 is also 911. The 911 channel in all but PD and FD radios is the emergency revert TG, so when you hit the orange button, it reverts to S1. In most (but not all) cases, the FD radios revert to Alpha 8 and I am not sure where the PD radios are reverting to.

The theory (I think) was that if the SHTF, then everyone on the system could inter-operate. It never worked the way it was designed because except for PD/FD nobody else has a clue how to do anything beyond turning the radio on, yelling into it, and turning it off again. In my time when I needed to talk to anyone other than FD, it was just easier to use a phone.

Mark

 

[atlong]

I don't disagree with the technical aspects of what's been said, but think of it this way. It pretty much comes down to the agreement that RR.com has with Whistler and Uniden and whomever else (I'm not speaking on behalf of RR.com, although I am an admin). If a scanner imports the information from the RR.com site into its own database, the radio needs to know what kind of system it is dealing with. If a phase II system is inputted as phase I and then it changes certain talkgroups over in time, the scanner is not going to catch the TDMA talkgroups until an admin updates the system in the db.

 

[atlong]

Good info Mark. Thanks.

 

[u2brent]

I don't disagree with the technical aspects of what's been said, but think of it this way. It pretty much comes down to the agreement that RR.com has with Whistler and Uniden and whomever else (I'm not speaking on behalf of RR.com, although I am an admin). If a scanner imports the information from the RR.com site into its own database, the radio needs to know what kind of system it is dealing with. If a phase II system is inputted as phase I and then it changes certain talkgroups over in time, the scanner is not going to catch the TDMA talkgroups until an admin updates the system in the db.

When those changes take place.. A user submits the change.
If every TG observed to date is FDMA; Then why say the system is TDMA?
I don't know how whistlers handle the issue but uniden scanners handle PH1 & PH2 systems as "P25 Standard" for either type. If they are only licensed for FDMA emmisions as @maus92 posted, What good is it to say it's a PH2 System?

I only mention this due to the firestorm reaction potentially brought about by folks with PH1 only scanners who will think they need a new scanner to hear the system (at least for now PH1 will work just fine).. IDK Just an opinion..

 

[maus92]

Is there any way to update the existing system RRDB entry with the info Mark provided?