They could not engineer a scanner that would decode encrypted traffic. Period.
Scanners Going away?
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radiation8
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Never say never, my friend, Look at the world of computer hacking, and the world of the NSA, the people working on "spying on us" are just normal everyday people like you and I, granted with probably a lot more education than me but in the grand scheme of things nothing is impossible.
Isn't the encryption point to point? Who's to say that information couldn't be leaked?
Isn't the encryption point to point? Who's to say that information couldn't be leaked?
ecps92
Member
Because the law says so about Encrypted (Decoding of them) transmissions. If you are not the intended person or authorized to Decrypt it
It's Encrypted for a Reason :roll:
It's Encrypted for a Reason :roll:
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radiation8
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I thought it was just certain services/and or groups.
So basically everything that is currently being transmitted right this minute that is analog, if it becomes encrypted it's now illegal?
N8IAA
Member
Exactly. Even P-25 conventional and trunked. It is the law, and has been for quite awhile.
Larry
I think its funny. I remember in Criminal Justice classes I took in college there were many many discussions on public transparency. I found it funny that when topics like "illegal search and seizure" came up, many students who were future Law Enforcement would make the common statement of: "If you aren't hiding anything illegal in your trunk, why would you demand a warrant from the Police to search it."
This statement brings me to my thought process in terms of radio encryption. "If Law Enforcement is not infringing upon the right to privacy of citizens, then why do they want to encrypt their radio signal?" Or at least: "Why do they want to encrypt ALL of their radio signals".
This statement brings me to my thought process in terms of radio encryption. "If Law Enforcement is not infringing upon the right to privacy of citizens, then why do they want to encrypt their radio signal?" Or at least: "Why do they want to encrypt ALL of their radio signals".
You are confusing digital with encryption. You can be one without the other. Digital is easy to encrypt, and there are many digital schemes for encrypting analog signals.
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Considering that it might take a Cray mainframe to decrypt AES256 encryption, I just don't see that fitting in a scanner at all, much less at a reasonable cost. If they are using a rolling encryption key, all bets are off.
"...would still take billions of years to brute force on current and foreseeable hardware." Yeah, that'll fit in a scanner! :roll:
LakeErieLarry
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Pinball whiz................I tend to agree with your post.I'm not fanatic yet. But I,a former officer, am disappointed in how things are going Police wise.. Just recently I noticed in an upscale neighborhood the cops looked like Gestapo agents in their gear.. My God, guns hanging off every limb, flack jackets ....... helmets. Their biggest crime is speeders. Can you imagine the image that portrays to someone passing through. I asked the Chief..he says it is the Unions pushing all this nonsense, and Younger, and younger officers being hired.. His words..They like to strut..
and want private channels they can talk on not available in the scanners.. (Encrypted ). He wants some citizens to come to council, and complain over the dress code their using and their activites.. We better get a grip on it before it is out of control..It doesn't take that much to create a police state. A few heavy handed enforcement officers can cause a lot of problems rather quickly.
and want private channels they can talk on not available in the scanners.. (Encrypted ). He wants some citizens to come to council, and complain over the dress code their using and their activites.. We better get a grip on it before it is out of control..It doesn't take that much to create a police state. A few heavy handed enforcement officers can cause a lot of problems rather quickly.
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CrabbyMilton
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First of all Larry, Thank You for your LE service. What you have to remember is this...CCP+ Crazy Criminal Pukes. It doesn't matter if it's the worst area of a larger city or small town USA, the CCP is everywhere and our police need to be armed and given the proper tools to combat this. Granted there will be some bad cops that come along but they will get their judgment. We don't want to paint with a broad brush to suggest that just because a cop is dressed as you describe and struts, that precludes them to be bad. These people have friends and family that love them and want to see them come home, go to dinner at their favorite restaurant and attend church on Sunday morning. Here in Wisconsin, we just had a drug crazed CCP kill his roommate, then on a interstate highway, randomly shoot and killed a 44 year old woman as she rode in her car with her husband and 2 young children after they were returning home from a day of recreation. That is what we ought to be worried about not a cop who may look scary even though it's his job to protect us from CCP's.
[/QUOTE=radiation8;2568828]Why wouldn't Uniden or Whistler make a Scanner that can decode encrypted transmissions?[/QUOTE]
To decode the audio, you would need an encryption key. For a small radio scanner running off 3 AA's, you'd be better off ordering Uber ride to Mars. Maybe, longer. You'll laugh at that later.
[/QUOTE=radiation8;2568828]If it currently sits that the Analog or "Trunking" transmissions aren't illegal to listen to, why would the same thing "only encrypted" not be?[/QUOTE]
It is illegal under federal law to decrypt any state actor radio signals.
To decode the audio, you would need an encryption key. For a small radio scanner running off 3 AA's, you'd be better off ordering Uber ride to Mars. Maybe, longer. You'll laugh at that later.
[/QUOTE=radiation8;2568828]If it currently sits that the Analog or "Trunking" transmissions aren't illegal to listen to, why would the same thing "only encrypted" not be?[/QUOTE]
It is illegal under federal law to decrypt any state actor radio signals.
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Thank you for paying attention and speaking out, LakeErieLarry. IMHO, those in government today are forgetting that government is for the people and not the other way around. Legitimate police forces can only be sucessful at enforcing the law when they augment the citizenry and not when they attempt to dominate it. On the nation's current trajectory, we will end up with a corrupt police state. There are groups of us that have been fighting this trend for decades. A surprising number of former officers, mostly retired, have joined us in this fight. They see what is refilling the ranks and the have read the writing on the wall. Encrypted communications by departments, when in excess, are but one symptom of a greater problem; as you have observed and articulated.
radiation8
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So why can't companies like Kenwood, Motorola and others refuse to make encrypted radios? Maybe we should be asking them instead?
CrabbyMilton
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Why should they refuse? That's like FORD not building the F150 because some people ask them not to for whatever reason. Companies build things because there is a demand for them.
radiation8
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It was just a question
CrabbyMilton
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HEHE I figured you may say that and perhaps I walked into that one. As painful as it sounds, police and fire don't transmit messages to entertain us. I don't like non sensitive encryption any more than anyone else that loves scanning. But it's reality and while it's not as popular, there are other things to hear besides public safety. Put the thing in search and see what's out there. I still do that and I often find some good stuff I never heard before.
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Motorola, Kenwood, Icom and all the others are in the business to make money and that is to sell options for radios. What you are missing is having any radio-receiver that decrypts an encrypted signal with out a written letter from the owner of the radio system or an employee with a department owned and issued radio is a big violation of the law.
I assert the membership of this forum has combined experience and knowledge exceeding any government agency existing our in country. If anything, it is our fault for being passive and allowing the chips to continue to fall as they have. Perhaps we are the ones to blame.
I can help anyone form a plan to start working to correct this problem. I think the matter of transparency has been covered well be a few of the previous posts, so I won't elaborate other than to say that nothing a government agency or government funded entity does should be hidden. Everything should be made easily accessible by the public. But the other factor is the obscene expense of all of these new radio systems and the encryption. Two big companies are making more and more getting people to buy new stuff (which constantly needs upgrades until one day they announce end of service and make you buy a whole new system). A lot of these new systems are not adequate. They get people -- first responders and the public -- killed. Some of us, if more involved, probably could have prevented this waste, unnecessary loss of life, and the lack of sunshine in the government.
The security of encryption is a myth. Anyone who is well organized enough to want to listen to encrypted traffic to implement his evil will have the technological capability to listen in. But, honestly, he doesn't even have to do it technologically, all he has to do is buy off a single radio user. Heck, he could even send his partner to sit and listen at the local dinner where the officers take their meals (with their radios on...). Indeed, these radio networks are massive. Thinking one is secure would be very naive. It's likely there are more examples of police officers or department employees utilizing issued radios to assist in committing crimes than there are people using scanners to do the same.
Even with encryption, the correspondence is still public information. Submit a Freedom of Information Act request for the recordings. If they are being abusive thinking they are talking in "secret," you'll expose that in a hurry. It would help find some allies.
We've all got to take action. There's no reason YOU can't be on your local city council. There's no reason YOU can't be you local agency's radio expert. There's no reason YOU can't mobilize others to correct these problems. With this forum, especially the state forums, already in existence, you have a huge advantage is forming a coalition. If anyone is truly interested in making a difference, let me know here or email me, and I will help you develop an effective plan of action.
No one is going to fix these problems for you. But if you and I take action, we can ensure open government and protect life and property.
I can help anyone form a plan to start working to correct this problem. I think the matter of transparency has been covered well be a few of the previous posts, so I won't elaborate other than to say that nothing a government agency or government funded entity does should be hidden. Everything should be made easily accessible by the public. But the other factor is the obscene expense of all of these new radio systems and the encryption. Two big companies are making more and more getting people to buy new stuff (which constantly needs upgrades until one day they announce end of service and make you buy a whole new system). A lot of these new systems are not adequate. They get people -- first responders and the public -- killed. Some of us, if more involved, probably could have prevented this waste, unnecessary loss of life, and the lack of sunshine in the government.
The security of encryption is a myth. Anyone who is well organized enough to want to listen to encrypted traffic to implement his evil will have the technological capability to listen in. But, honestly, he doesn't even have to do it technologically, all he has to do is buy off a single radio user. Heck, he could even send his partner to sit and listen at the local dinner where the officers take their meals (with their radios on...). Indeed, these radio networks are massive. Thinking one is secure would be very naive. It's likely there are more examples of police officers or department employees utilizing issued radios to assist in committing crimes than there are people using scanners to do the same.
Even with encryption, the correspondence is still public information. Submit a Freedom of Information Act request for the recordings. If they are being abusive thinking they are talking in "secret," you'll expose that in a hurry. It would help find some allies.
We've all got to take action. There's no reason YOU can't be on your local city council. There's no reason YOU can't be you local agency's radio expert. There's no reason YOU can't mobilize others to correct these problems. With this forum, especially the state forums, already in existence, you have a huge advantage is forming a coalition. If anyone is truly interested in making a difference, let me know here or email me, and I will help you develop an effective plan of action.
No one is going to fix these problems for you. But if you and I take action, we can ensure open government and protect life and property.
Because they make money hand over fist on government contracts, millions more than scanners.
What's the down side for not encrypting?
I was thinking about buying a new scanner. Even though the digital scanners are in my opinion
outragously priced I might have gone for it and the reason why I am holding off is because of
my monitoring using a simple $20 SDR-RTL dongle and some free software.
Its not so much for the cheap price its what I am observing. I start listenning and then they
switch to encryption and that kills the audio. DSDplus tells me they switched to encryption.
If it happened only once in a while not to bad but its to frequent to spend the big dollar on
a digital scanner.
I am really surprised why everything in my area isn't encrypted since its so simple for them to do it.
Unless there is political pressure for them to allow people to listen and keep the police honest,
I see no reason why any service would want average Joe the hobbiest to listen. Besides, I don't
think any Politician, unless he is a Ham Operator or hobbiest would want anyone to listen in.
I also think, regardless of the law, someone will crack P25 encrytion (if its not done already)
and using a dongle and software will be the way to decode it. MFG won't be allowed to install
it into the radios. Maybe if it does get cracked some smart guru will figure out how to install
it in a firmware upgrade.
I am not promoting anyone to break the law I'm just stating what most likely will happen
and anyone wanting the technology (the bad guy) will have it very easily.
Ken
I was thinking about buying a new scanner. Even though the digital scanners are in my opinion
outragously priced I might have gone for it and the reason why I am holding off is because of
my monitoring using a simple $20 SDR-RTL dongle and some free software.
Its not so much for the cheap price its what I am observing. I start listenning and then they
switch to encryption and that kills the audio. DSDplus tells me they switched to encryption.
If it happened only once in a while not to bad but its to frequent to spend the big dollar on
a digital scanner.
I am really surprised why everything in my area isn't encrypted since its so simple for them to do it.
Unless there is political pressure for them to allow people to listen and keep the police honest,
I see no reason why any service would want average Joe the hobbiest to listen. Besides, I don't
think any Politician, unless he is a Ham Operator or hobbiest would want anyone to listen in.
I also think, regardless of the law, someone will crack P25 encrytion (if its not done already)
and using a dongle and software will be the way to decode it. MFG won't be allowed to install
it into the radios. Maybe if it does get cracked some smart guru will figure out how to install
it in a firmware upgrade.
I am not promoting anyone to break the law I'm just stating what most likely will happen
and anyone wanting the technology (the bad guy) will have it very easily.
Ken
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