The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

[scanthewaves]

I guess that's what makes it so prevalent nowadays.

 

[Net-5]

No wonder Las Vegas Metro PD (and more departments across the country) are going or have already gone encrypted: "Wright [convicted on federal charges of armed robbery], using a police radio scanner app on his phone, relayed information to his co-conspirators to avoid apprehension."

Las Vegas Man Sentenced To 35 Years In Prison For Two Violent Takeover Robberies And Assault On A Federal Officer

According to Las Vegas area news media reports, Wright (the mastermind and ringleader responsible for targeting, planning and facilitating the robberies) would wait in the area of the robberies and relay police movements and responses to the get-away driver and other robbers at the scenes.

Wright and his robbery crew also committed other, earlier take-over robberies prior to the later charges he was convicted of (as mentioned in the above link); the prior robbery charges were dismissed reportedly due to mistakes made by the Nevada US Attorney's Office in providing discovery to the defense. Had Wright been convicted on the earlier charges he faced up to 100 years in prison and he would likely not have been free on the street to commit the further robberies he was later convicted of.

An estimated $1.5 million in jewelry is still missing from Wright and crew's earlier heists, per media reporting. While Wright walked on those charges, some members of his crew did not and were convicted. There is no word that I could find on whether Wright used a cell phone police scanner monitoring app in the earlier robberies.

However, Wright also reportedly used the examples of his successes at the earlier robberies and in beating those charges to recruit more individuals into his robbery crew.

I believe that robbers using this level of sophistication, such as the use of cell phone police scanner monitoring apps, are thankfully rare.

This post is information only and not intended to be "negative" per RR's policy regarding posts about encryption.

 

[paulears]

The view of the US authorities we have here in the UK is of a very strict and regulated control, little scope for rule interpreting and a very serious federal system above the local system. In the 50s-70s, I believed the US system to be more open than the UK, but then we eased up, and I got the impression the US tightened. US immigration and border control are very unpleasant to experience as a visitor, and that's how we perceive America.

I'm frankly amazed in this day and age that for some strange reason, emergency services seem to retain the "everyone is entitled to know what they do" status. In these times of terrorist activity, surely preventing people listening is preferable to allowing everyone to know exactly what is going on. Surely for those incidents where secrecy is required encrypted comms are essential, and if they work, why are they not rolled out to every single police department - they're not even expensive now!

My son is a dispatcher for our Police and now every person wears in ear devices for most of the time - they can be open and honest in their language. If somebody is suspected of carrying something dangerous or having history, they can talk about it openly. they can give addresses, they can give out personal information that would be illegal if people could listen in due to our crazy privacy laws on data protection.

I miss listening to the Police, Ambulance and Fire but there is no doubt that for the public in general, this is a good thing.

Why are private communications deemed to be public in this very uncontrolled way in the US?

 

[Anderegg]

Paulears, I think what you are seeing over here is a basic and very general distrust, by a large vocal segment of the population, of their government and more specifically law enforcement. Basically, if we can't see what you are doing, then you must be plotting against me and my freedoms and liberties. When you live in a democracy where the "winning" half can force the other half to adbide by their wishes, these types of things are bound to become issues.


Paul

 

[paulears]

We have exactly the same in the current never ending saga about leaving the EU. the majority want to leave, the minority try to find any way to somehow make the vote less black and white, and mistrust of our elected officials is higher than it's ever been, irrespective of the party or the individual views. We also have distrust of law enforcement, but very oddly, this is usually linked to people's social-economic status. Our old class system still exists, while we pretend it doesn't, with the addition of an extra lowest class. Upper class down to lower class now has sub-divisions and we have a new one - third or fourth generation 'take the benefits, have the kids, expect money, health and housing' people at the very bottom. The others in the main have respect for what the Police do. We don't have these freedoms and liberties as rights, just history.

 

[com501]

Some things are very different in a country where your freedoms are RIGHTS that cannot be revoked, and the populace has the ability to over throw the Government by force if necessary. This makes walking the fine line of encryption something that ways heavily on politicians.

 

[paulears]

At the risk of being political - what do citizens put first, their security or their rights if these things conflict? It does explain some of the things we read in the media and don't quite understand? The greater good can be put to one side when the rights impose a wrong direction or even perhaps mistake. Forgive me - but have these rights ever been revues since they were written? There was an original Star Trek episode that had the Constitution as a plot point - and I never understood it back then. I suspect we Brits, never having had such a thing, just don't understand the importance many citizens put on it? We're so similar, yet do different?

 

[drdispatch]

At the risk of being political - what do citizens put first, their security or their rights if these things conflict? It does explain some of the things we read in the media and don't quite understand? The greater good can be put to one side when the rights impose a wrong direction or even perhaps mistake. Forgive me - but have these rights ever been revues since they were written? There was an original Star Trek episode that had the Constitution as a plot point - and I never understood it back then. I suspect we Brits, never having had such a thing, just don't understand the importance many citizens put on it? We're so similar, yet do different?

At the risk of hijacking the thread, and to put it in its simplest form; RIGHTS are bestowed by The Creator (as stated in the Declaration of Independence). The Constitution merely reaffirms and protects those rights.

 

[David628]

Im neither for nor against online scanner listening so please don't go there. Everything has its own place in this free market world. I stumbled on this article doing some very limited and brief google research on why some local Colorado counties and police departments are encrypting and found this interesting article. the point here is that I always thought that broadcastify was the only scanner app, but apparently the report discusses on page 2 there is also a "5.0 Pro" scanner app.

Bullet # 5. "In a kidnapping, the kidnappers timed their kidnapping by listening to the activities of police, which turned into a horrific case for the victim. This particular case, known as the Turner Kidnapping, occurred in 2013 and involved a child abduction in which the kidnapper worked with an accomplice who used the 5-0 Radio Pro Police scanner application to actively monitor the location and actions of police officers in order to successfully abduct the victim. (The victim was found in Canada the next day and returned safely to his mother.)" More found here.

https://www.longmontcolorado.gov/home/showdocument?id=27744

Public Safety News | City of Longmont, Colorado

See the latest news from the Public Safety area of the City of Longmont's website. Here you will find information on a City's Fire and Police Divisions.

www.longmontcolorado.gov

Edit to add. See pages 13-23 it states there that these are "Comments on Specific Incidents Where Use of the Unencrypted Channel Increased Risk to Officers"

 

[ind224]

I'm fortunate that encryption has not killed much of what I listen to since the late 80's. In fact, Phase II is more an issue for me now as my fleet for digital are 197's. That being said I did not read all 58 pages of this thread and just considered encryption the way it was. Maybe it has been mentioned but I used to grumble if I had to get up to manually lock out when I heard encryption on Mot P25 and my own alpha tag said "encrypted" so at least I knew something was happening but then I heard encrypted radios talking to someone in the clear and vice versa; I was still able to glean what was going on with just one radio / part of the conversation. So now I listen a bit and hope whatever it is intentional compatability, specific TG's or someone not"flipping the switch" and enjoy what I get. If I had a scanner that automatically locked out or skipped I would miss that opportunity.

 

[darkness975]

I'm fortunate that encryption has not killed much of what I listen to since the late 80's. In fact, Phase II is more an issue for me now as my fleet for digital are 197's. That being said I did not read all 58 pages of this thread and just considered encryption the way it was. Maybe it has been mentioned but I used to grumble if I had to get up to manually lock out when I heard encryption on Mot P25 and my own alpha tag said "encrypted" so at least I knew something was happening but then I heard encrypted radios talking to someone in the clear and vice versa; I was still able to glean what was going on with just one radio / part of the conversation. So now I listen a bit and hope whatever it is intentional compatability, specific TG's or someone not"flipping the switch" and enjoy what I get. If I had a scanner that automatically locked out or skipped I would miss that opportunity.

Certain places are more affected by encryption than others

 

[ind224]

I concur. I used to drive to Titusville Florida for shuttle launches and Florida State Patrol were already dark back then. I would not enjoy being in Allen Co Indiana either.

 

[David628]

So now I listen a bit and hope whatever it is intentional compatability, specific TG's or someone not"flipping the switch" and enjoy what I get. If I had a scanner that automatically locked out or skipped I would miss that opportunity.

I keep all encrypted TG's programed into my SDS200 & 100 series scanners and its surprising how often I hear "in the clear" traffic on fully encrypted TG's. When I catch them in the clear they appear to be saying the same old routine stuff on the encrypted TG's that they said before on the unencrypted TG's. In other words it's business as usual for them on the encrypted talk groups from what I've experienced.

Also, don't forget to add in the Mutual Aid Channels. Their in the clear and you hear all the good chases when multi agencies are involved!

If your agencies went dark; heres are two great crime report tools to see what's going on in your area if you can't monitor any longer. You can subscribe here to get crime reports for your areas . LexisNexis® Community Crime Map and My Neighborhood Update

Happy scanning!

 

[zerg901]

http://www.ocsd.org/civicax/inc/blobfetch.aspx?BlobID=110614

Orange County CA reviewing 22,000 cases

99.9999999999% of law enforcement talkgroups in Orange County CA are encrypted

 

[darkness975]

And yet the dead horse of broadcasted feeds fueling encryption efforts never does since streamers refuse to stop.

 

[zerg901]

darkness975 - I think you are trying to say that scanner feeds causes encryption. I see slim evidence of that. The police are afraid of the news media and the FBI.

Lets look at the pros and cons of scanner feeds. Cons - some criminals might gain. Pros - public gets good insight into police ops - and the public gets good situational awareness.

The pros of scanner feeds far outweigh the cons IMHO.

 

[AESFTW]

darkness975 - I think you are trying to say that scanner feeds causes encryption. I see slim evidence of that. The police are afraid of the news media and the FBI.

Lets look at the pros and cons of scanner feeds. Cons - some criminals might gain. Pros - public gets good insight into police ops - and the public gets good situational awareness.

The pros of scanner feeds far outweigh the cons IMHO.

Police are afraid of the FBI? In most locations, the FBI has multiple interop radios with local and state trunking systems loaded in for interoperability. That means shared encryption keys as well as sensitive talkgroups loaded. This may not be the case for every small town pd but I think there is much more concern over citizens having access at a click of a button rather having to program a scanner correctly to listen in. On top of that, most states have some sort of scanner law regarding its use in vehicles without certain licenses etc. Kind of hard to enforce listening to a scanner app mobile as compared to a scanner installed in a vehicle. Just my two cents.

 

[darkness975]

Police are afraid of the FBI? In most locations, the FBI has multiple interop radios with local and state trunking systems loaded in for interoperability. That means shared encryption keys as well as sensitive talkgroups loaded. This may not be the case for every small town pd but I think there is much more concern over citizens having access at a click of a button rather having to program a scanner correctly to listen in. On top of that, most states have some sort of scanner law regarding its use in vehicles without certain licenses etc. Kind of hard to enforce listening to a scanner app mobile as compared to a scanner installed in a vehicle. Just my two cents.

Only a very small handful of states have any kind of Law that bans having a scanner in a mobile vehicle. Florida and New York state are the two that come to mind.

That being said, there are a number of states that will attack on additional charges if you commit a crime while in possession of a scanner on your person or in a motor vehicle. But those states do not outright ban having them in the vehicle. States like New York and Florida do, however.

 

[drdispatch]

Indiana also, with some exceptions, including amateur licensees. Interestingly, the way the law is written, it doesn't cover scanner apps.

 

[bklynrob70]

Does anyone by chance know if there is a trusted central truth source, or database, that maintains information on the number of crimes committed with the aid of police scanners? The common theme I hear is departments have encrypted, or plan to encrypt for "officer safety". In a perfect world, it would be great to understand the extend in which police scanners have been used in crimes, and more specifically, crimes that resulted in actual violence or threat of violence to officers. I don't doubt that some criminals use scanners as a tool to avoid detection/apprehension, I just wonder if the problem is pervasive enough that it merits discarding transparency to the public.