The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

[zerg901]

bklynrob70 - I have never come across any database that maintains info on the number of crimes committed with the aid of police scanners

I dont remember any cases where a cop was hurt due to a scanner - perhaps they are just slipping my mind at this point

This spreadsheet tries to keep track of info concerning encryption and openness - The War Against Scanner Encryption

 

[bklynrob70]

bklynrob70 - I have never come across any database that maintains info on the number of crimes committed with the aid of police scanners

I dont remember any cases where a cop was hurt due to a scanner - perhaps they are just slipping my mind at this point

This spreadsheet tries to keep track of info concerning encryption and openness - The War Against Scanner Encryption

Thanks Zerg, I appreciate the spreadsheet. I personally don't know of any cases where scanner use attributed to harm against officers. In the age of the demand of transparency of public officials, complete encryption seems counter productive.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Thanks Zerg, I appreciate the spreadsheet. I personally don't know of any cases where scanner use attributed to harm against officers. In the age of the demand of transparency of public officials, complete encryption seems counter productive.

Currently my province is transitioning to a province wide P25 trunk system. Our national police force has moved and is 100% encrypted. Occasionally there are dispatch consoles that will be in the clear, but not often.

There is a large municipal police force that is in the process of moving, but are not complete, and have an EMG to bridge the EDACS system to the P25 trunk system.

The municipal dispatch talkgroups on the EDACS system are analogue, but the corresponding P25 talkgroups are encrypted.

Last night there was a criminal flight involving both agencies, and they were patched(P25 talkgroups) together. Because of the EMG, this entire event was broadcast on the analogue EDACS dispatch talkgroup.

Due to the fact that the vehicle was able to avoid EVERY attempt to spike belt it, and was able to get away, there is a high(VERY high) likely hood the driver was using an app to listen to the scanner feed on broadcastify.

 

[blueonesparky]

I think a lot of the concerns about Broadcastify and online feeds causing strong motivation for local and state governments to encrypt could be alleviated by Broadcastify imposing a delay on all transmitted feeds... nothing too crazy... maybe a 10 minute delay. This would significantly decrease any tactical gains by the "bad guys."

I've been looking at a way to do this delay on the transmission end so I can put a scanner feed for my local area online without compromising safety of local responders without relying on a 3rd party who has a financial stake in feeding news to the masses as fast as possible... but I am also looking at feeding my audio without using Broadcastify as I am not hugely in favor of an entity reaping big profits from something I would be providing for free.

 

[Rotella]

The delay is a great idea, seems like that would've always been a thing, like on talk radio.
But as far as harm, I guess it's not the broke meth heads listening to Broadcastify they are motivated by, or the thugs in the car who already know they have outstanding warrants , but rather the people who make thousands a day trafficking, to whom a top-of-the-line scanner and/or firearm purchase is a mere inconvenience.
This allows real-time monitoring.
But, they are no match for a trained entry team anyway.
However, I hate the move to encryption. Killing a wonderful hobby, one of my joys. Another one the next generations may never know.
I believe that almost anything that is created, which provides less transparency, or more power, or control, will always find a hungry customer base in government.
Efficacy, economy, and practicality be damned. Someone will give an elementary speech about how much it's needed.
Probably exponentially more LEO are killed/injured by haters who ambush through fake calls or are warned by baby momma that they're on the way, after he assaulted her.

 

[MTS2000des]

I think a lot of the concerns about Broadcastify and online feeds causing strong motivation for local and state governments to encrypt could be alleviated by Broadcastify imposing a delay on all transmitted feeds... nothing too crazy... maybe a 10 minute delay. This would significantly decrease any tactical gains by the "bad guys."

It really has little impact into the decision making process. The bottom line is those making decisions now are looking at things strictly from a security standpoint. Encryption is now standard fare on most P25 subscribers sold across the board, and the ubiquity of cellphones with streaming app/social media "reporters" is what drives alot of the concern, some valid, some not so. Either way, if the powers that be implemented a "mandatory" delay of 1,5,10,20 minutes or whatever, it really would not make much of a difference.

I've been looking at a way to do this delay on the transmission end so I can put a scanner feed for my local area online without compromising safety of local responders without relying on a 3rd party who has a financial stake in feeding news to the masses as fast as possible... but I am also looking at feeding my audio without using Broadcastify as I am not hugely in favor of an entity reaping big profits from something I would be providing for free.

Zello is a great way to accomplish this, as you can only provide credentials to those who are authorized by you if you so choose and thus, you remain in 100 percent control of the feed (so long as Zello remains free and available, but like anything else it is subject to change). I know several folks who do this and feed select talkgroups on the system I am involved with managing. They don't give out the credentials to just anyone and don't blab what they hear to everyone either.

 

[chris_mccracken]

In the words of the Bud Light commercial .... HERE WE GO!

Go forth and fight for and against the RadioReference Live Audio Feed platform. Keep it civil, keep it clean. Good luck :roll:

can we get hobbs nm now

 

[warriornation]

Why fight over something you have no control over?

We see LE using scanner and RR loaded cell phone toting bad guys as an argument for encryption, yet how often do they shut down high-speed chases, letting the perpetrator go so no one's put in harms way? I've heard it happen twice this week alone. Wonder how they plan on fixing that with encryption?

Does anyone have access to statistics for agencies that have gone encrypted to see if it's actually made any difference in terms of catching the bad guy and enhancing officer safety? My guess is if it had, our scanners would be silent already. (Of course, there has to be money for it) Otherwise, I agree 100% with GG's last comment in post #84 of the original thread. That's how it is in my area and seems to be working pretty well.

This site will be here long after the feeds are gone and encryption has taken over. My measley 2c.

But we do have control over it. IF anything is paid by TAX PAYER MONEY, then it's the tax payer, that should be calling the shots, with in reason. We, the tax payer, who pay almost everything for the police, fire, etc....should have a say how it's used. The radios shouldn't have encryption. It's PUBLIC. PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. PUBLIC PAID. Therefore the public should be able to listen and hear what is going on with the police and fire. SOMEBODY needs to file a law suite, to where the public should be allowed to hear what is going on in our towns, no matter what it is. If taking a picture in public is lawful, and darn near everything else in public lawful, then hearing what is going on in our towns is lawful also. Not only that, hearing something and benefit the people with what is going on when it concerns police and fire. And I'm not referring too privately owned websites. I'm referring to privately owned SCANNERS.

 

[warriornation]

IF anything is paid by TAX PAYER MONEY, then it's the tax payer, that should be calling the shots, with in reason. We, the tax payer, who pay almost everything for the police, fire, etc....should have a say how it's used. The radios shouldn't have encryption. It's PUBLIC. POLICE AND FIRE ARE PUBLIC. PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. PUBLIC PAID. Therefore the public should be able to listen and hear what is going on, with the police and fire. SOMEBODY needs to FILE A LAW SUITE, to where the public should be allowed to hear what is going on in our towns over the police radios, no matter what it is. Police NOW, use cell phones and laptops to talk to one another and dispatch, WITHOUT the public hearing anything or knowing anything. It's tax payer paid cell phones, and tax payer paid laptops, then it should be tax payer knowledge of all of it. If taking a picture in public is lawful, and darn near everything else in public lawful, then hearing what is going on in our towns in the public, is lawful also. Not only that, hearing something could benefit the people with what is going on when it concerns police and fire. And I'm not referring too privately owned websites. I'm referring to privately owned SCANNERS. If I buy a police scanner that picks up the frequencies, then I should be able to hear what is going on in my town, by publicly tax payer dollars.

 

[MTS2000des]

IF anything is paid by TAX PAYER MONEY, then it's the tax payer, that should be calling the shots, with in reason. We, the tax payer, who pay almost everything for the police, fire, etc....should have a say how it's used. T

Oh here we go again. Another "taxpayer" who has their "say". By that logic, because the "taxpayer" funds the costs of the toilets in the judges' chambers, the "taxpayer" should be able to waltz in and take a royal dump on the throne anytime he/she wishes, because after all, the "taxpayer" funded it.

The radios shouldn't have encryption. It's PUBLIC. POLICE AND FIRE ARE PUBLIC. PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. PUBLIC PAID.

Good luck with that notion. Says the one who's mad because technology has marched on and one can't eavesdrop in realtime to everything.

Computers replaced pen and paper. By this logic, everything on a government computer should be viewable live, in real time, from anyone, anywhere.

By the way, encryption doesn't stop one from filing an open records request. So that qualifies as "public knowledge" the same way one can request CAD call data, police and fire reports, crime statistics, et al. All is openly available, yet the "public" doesn't have free, unfettered access to CAD, RMS and everything in real time. Data encryption is used on every government network and radio networks are now IP networks, so yes, encrypted they go. Deal with it. Suck it up buttercup.

SOMEBODY needs to FILE A LAW SUITE, to where the public should be allowed to hear what is going on in our towns over the police radios, no matter what it is.

A law suite? Or you mean suit. Well several have, and they've all been shot down. Any other brilliant ideas?

Police NOW, use cell phones and laptops to talk to one another and dispatch, WITHOUT the public hearing anything or knowing anything. It's tax payer paid cell phones, and tax payer paid laptops, then it should be tax payer knowledge of all of it.

You can file open requests for that data. Anything that isn't sensitive will be released. Of course there is a process, none of which starts with making threats or acting like a horses' ass. Every state has a different law. Look up what you're is and go to town. Oh, most will require payment for the time/materials it costs for the "lowest paid employee capable of producing such records" so it aint' gonna be free. Nothing in life is, after all.

If taking a picture in public is lawful, and darn near everything else in public lawful, then hearing what is going on in our towns in the public, is lawful also. Not only that, hearing something could benefit the people with what is going on when it concerns police and fire. And I'm not referring too privately owned websites. I'm referring to privately owned SCANNERS. If I buy a police scanner that picks up the frequencies, then I should be able to hear what is going on in my town, by publicly tax payer dollars.

and so long as your desired signals are not encrypted, you can tune in till your hearts content. Enjoy what you can while you can. Nothing is guaranteed.

 

[radiopro52]

I guess I'm lucky that my town uses little to no encryption, but that can certainty change at any time especially with recent events. I do believe that live audio feeds can, and have been, the final straw for an agency to encrypt. Not everyone can afford (or program) a $600 scanner with a proper antenna setup but pretty much everyone now has a smartphone of some sort. Certainly opens the door much wider to let in the bad guys. That being said, I think the majority of people who listen to scanners don't have any ill-intent. I for one just like to know what's going on in my area, and I do see the benefit of being able to listen to far away agencies via live feeds.

I'm honestly surprised that there are still a good number of people using scanners, or live feeds for that matter. The scanner hobby seems to be becoming more niche as the years go on, and many people probably aren't even aware that it may be possible to listen to police comms. Maybe it's just in my area.

 

[N1KK]

I hope I am not breaking any forum rules with Encryption but here goes.

With all that's going on in the Country with Police, protesting, etc. I was wondering
if Cities as a good will of transparency decide to stop Encryption letting citizens
hear whats going on. It certainly would be a positive step offered by law enforcement.

Might be a good idea to pass on to your local legislator.

Ken

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Oh here we go again. Another "taxpayer" who has their "say". By that logic, because the "taxpayer" funds the costs of the toilets in the judges' chambers, the "taxpayer" should be able to waltz in and take a royal dump on the throne anytime he/she wishes, because after all, the "taxpayer" funded it.

Good luck with that notion. Says the one who's mad because technology has marched on and one can't eavesdrop in realtime to everything.

Computers replaced pen and paper. By this logic, everything on a government computer should be viewable live, in real time, from anyone, anywhere.

By the way, encryption doesn't stop one from filing an open records request. So that qualifies as "public knowledge" the same way one can request CAD call data, police and fire reports, crime statistics, et al. All is openly available, yet the "public" doesn't have free, unfettered access to CAD, RMS and everything in real time. Data encryption is used on every government network and radio networks are now IP networks, so yes, encrypted they go. Deal with it. Suck it up buttercup.

A law suite? Or you mean suit. Well several have, and they've all been shot down. Any other brilliant ideas?

You can file open requests for that data. Anything that isn't sensitive will be released. Of course there is a process, none of which starts with making threats or acting like a horses' ass. Every state has a different law. Look up what you're is and go to town. Oh, most will require payment for the time/materials it costs for the "lowest paid employee capable of producing such records" so it aint' gonna be free. Nothing in life is, after all.

and so long as your desired signals are not encrypted, you can tune in till your hearts content. Enjoy what you can while you can. Nothing is guaranteed.

IMHO, streaming audio feeds is driving encryption, pure and simple.

For a while, you had to have at least a little know-how to program a scanner, especially to properly follow a trunked system. Once people got the brilliant idea that they should then provide streams live on the internet, that requirement vanished. Add to that the "pre-programmed for your area" scanners that are now on the market. With internet streaming, every agitator can pull up a "police scanner app" on their cell phone and listen. This is all well and good until you have events like we have seen recently, where people are actively seeking to provoke and engage law enforcement. Thus, we have to go encrypted for operational security, its just that simple.

With recent events, I have become convinced that all law enforcement should be encrypted. There is no reason to give these domestic terrorists any kind of advantage, and there are literally people who now make it their business to agitate, sow division, and seek to provoke unnecessary confrontation with law enforcement. The vast majority in law enforcement aren't trying to hide anything from the public, we just want to go home at the end of our shift. Anything that gives us an advantage in doing so is a tool we should consider using.

 

[jthorpe]

IMHO, streaming audio feeds is driving encryption, pure and simple.

For a while, you had to have at least a little know-how to program a scanner, especially to properly follow a trunked system. Once people got the brilliant idea that they should then provide streams live on the internet, that requirement vanished. Add to that the "pre-programmed for your area" scanners that are now on the market. With internet streaming, every agitator can pull up a "police scanner app" on their cell phone and listen. This is all well and good until you have events like we have seen recently, where people are actively seeking to provoke and engage law enforcement. Thus, we have to go encrypted for operational security, its just that simple.

With recent events, I have become convinced that all law enforcement should be encrypted. There is no reason to give these domestic terrorists any kind of advantage, and there are literally people who now make it their business to agitate, sow division, and seek to provoke unnecessary confrontation with law enforcement. The vast majority in law enforcement aren't trying to hide anything from the public, we just want to go home at the end of our shift. Anything that gives us an advantage in doing so is a tool we should consider using.

Broadcastify is killing the scanner hobby, especially in this day and age of officers being threatened, killed and shot at on a daily basis. The groups that are causing the riots are organized and they aren't stupid when it comes to technology. Going encrypted is the way to keep the officers safe from that, and it's only a matter of time before almost if not all LE communications is encrypted. People can complain here all day long but it won't change a thing.

 

[jthorpe]

IF anything is paid by TAX PAYER MONEY, then it's the tax payer, that should be calling the shots, with in reason. We, the tax payer, who pay almost everything for the police, fire, etc....should have a say how it's used. The radios shouldn't have encryption. It's PUBLIC. POLICE AND FIRE ARE PUBLIC. PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. PUBLIC PAID. Therefore the public should be able to listen and hear what is going on, with the police and fire. SOMEBODY needs to FILE A LAW SUITE, to where the public should be allowed to hear what is going on in our towns over the police radios, no matter what it is. Police NOW, use cell phones and laptops to talk to one another and dispatch, WITHOUT the public hearing anything or knowing anything. It's tax payer paid cell phones, and tax payer paid laptops, then it should be tax payer knowledge of all of it. If taking a picture in public is lawful, and darn near everything else in public lawful, then hearing what is going on in our towns in the public, is lawful also. Not only that, hearing something could benefit the people with what is going on when it concerns police and fire. And I'm not referring too privately owned websites. I'm referring to privately owned SCANNERS. If I buy a police scanner that picks up the frequencies, then I should be able to hear what is going on in my town, by publicly tax payer dollars.

Spare us all. You have ZERO clue what LE has to put up with especially lately.

 

[jthorpe]

I have never had any gripes with business or any other private band encryption. I have the gripe with police service encryption because my tax money pays for all state, county and local police and I like to hear how my money is being spent in this respect. Fair enough?

No, not fair enough. Your "right" to hear anything you think you want to doesn't Trump officer safety. Period...

 

[kmoe]

https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/...derations for Encryption_Final Draft508_0.pdf

Some exerts from the federal document starting on page 7:

Ft. Hood Active Shooter --
The first item to be posted was the link to the live feed of the local public safety agency13
13 http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/219

Fort Collins, Colorado –
In 2013, the Fort Collins Colorado Police Department began encrypting all routine radio traffic so the public could not listen with scanners or smartphone apps.

Allentown, Pennsylvania –
The Allentown Mayor believes this will prevent criminals from listening to sensitive transmissions with commercially available scanners and smart phone apps.

Garden City, Kansas –
Department officials stated that "The primary factor is the safety of the officers. Basically, it boils down to officers can now respond and coordinate efforts for certain incidents, and everybody doesn't hear it. Scanner traffic is available online now, and there are even applications for smart phones."

Active Shooter Incidents -
Modern technology allows perpetrators to monitor police communications from a smart phone or an inexpensive scanner making it easier than ever before for unencrypted communications to be intercepted by suspects.

Use of Scanners and Social Media -
The lack of encryption on voice channels that transmit law enforcement sensitive, sensitive medical information and personally identifiable information (PII) allows the public to listen and gather this information affording an opportunity to disseminate the information through various means including the Internet. "Hobbyists” currently scan, record, and rebroadcast Federal, State, and local public safety radio traffic and document it on a number of public web sites.

 

[iceman382]

It's big business to sell new fancy radio systems to municipalities and government agencies. Big dollar contracts go to the few that are well connected.

Transparency is key, not hiding behind encryption like a scared dog under a table.

 

[tdave365]

I am surprised to discover this thread and find it odd that it obsesses over the connection between the open public safety broadcasting debate and live feeding or streaming. The controversy predates any such technology, though, I'll concede that rebroadcasting scanner feeds over the web absolutely aggravates it.

 

[DiGiTaLD]

The county I work in has developed a protocol for everyone to switch to encrypted talk groups on a moment's notice. Broadcastify is specifically named as the reason. The domestic terrorists are listening. They consider law enforcement their enemy. Why on earth should we provide them with any advantage? This is all thanks to the people who think it's their "right" to stream audio on the internet. It may be legal, but its causing pproblems for those of us who have to go out there and actually do the job. Fortunately, audio streaming will be a self-correcting problem. So keep it up. Pretty soon you'll have nothing to stream.