The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!
- Thread starter blantonl
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Nothing at all wrong with yelling at the rain, it's going to keep falling no matter what. Might as well give it a piece of your mind.
If we agree that streaming played a large role in public safety depts encrypting, it's great irony that it planted the seeds of its own ultimate demise. The main attraction to streaming sites is public safety comms. The listener base for ham radio, rail, etc is simply not large enough. Live ATC has the aircraft crowd locked up.
Ham streaming needs to be marketed better, and sorted by genre.
Chilling Medical Mysteries
Lawnmower Appreciation
Creative Cursing
Psychological
Inventories of Radios and Accessories
BinaryMode
Blondie Once Said To Call Her But Never Answerd
Who's yelling at the rain? I wrote letters! Now I'm going to write the mayor. And if that doesn't help I'll get a measure on the ballot for the people WHO DISTRUST the police to open a delayed dispatch only feed and/or talkgroup. No one here is yelling at the rain.
Hope you have some success. Keep us posted. Writing the mayor in my town would do not good. He is a former police captain.
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Yes that's why I put the caveat in there that I was not referring to the current conversation that was going on but the entire thread itself over the 15 years.
People have submitted petitions, written letters to their County Supervisors, gotten petitions together, believe it or not there's not a whole lot of people who care about this topic so if you put it on the referendum on the ballot for the people to vote on I'm not sure what support there would be, I'm sure the average person who doesn't know anything about what we're talking about would say of course people shouldn't be able to listen to the police on a cell phone app LOL.
If you look at the description of shouting at the rain above.. it speaks of changing something you cannot change and the futility and ineffectiveness of trying to do so.
This was not personally directed towards anyone. If you are in a campaign to write to your leaders and try to get them to reverse their decision on encryption, I wish you luck and good wishes. I'm really not going to get involved in this conversation, I just want you to know it wasn't personally directed towards you.. I imagine over the years I have gotten involved in this thread in the past but now, it would just be a futile exercise and I WOULD BE shouting at the rain🤣.
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radiopro52
Member
I think it's safe to say that scanner feeds aren't going anywhere. No matter what is said in this thread, it's not going to change the minds of the individuals who use scanner feeds as part of their business model.
That being said, the only thing that might possibly help the situation is if everyone streaming scanner traffic got together and agreed to shut down their feeds for the sake of the hobby. Has there ever been talk amongst the feed providers about this? Surely some of them have seen the writing on the wall by this point.
That being said, the only thing that might possibly help the situation is if everyone streaming scanner traffic got together and agreed to shut down their feeds for the sake of the hobby. Has there ever been talk amongst the feed providers about this? Surely some of them have seen the writing on the wall by this point.
Any modern processor has an AES engine built in. Microprocessors are EXTREMLY efficient at handling AES256. It isn't a matter of an agency choosing "NSA level TOP SECRET", it's a matter of the industry choosing an encryption methodology that is widely supported, and has been scrutinized by experts in the field to not be vulnerable. Could an agency get by with weaker encryption? Sure, probably. But why? There's no benefit to choosing ARC4 or DES over AES, nothing but downsides.
There is transparency. If the Police do something that doesn't pass the "sniff test", all of their comms are recorded and subject to subpoena. Just because it isn't available to anyone who wants to hear it, doesn't mean there's no transparency. I don't know CPD's rationale for offering a delayed feed, but that is a department by department decision and they have -zero- obligation to provide it to anyone.
Scanner feeds as a business model will only disappear when it is no longer viable.
Interesting thought, but I doubt many that are streaming public safety comms would agree to stop. Not sure it would even make a difference at this point. The technology is out there, the radio sales people are no doubt persuasive, so most departments will just flip the switch when upgrading their systems.
Simple basic Encryption is now FREE and built into the Radios and is used as a selling point to the customer.
Most end users do not know the difference between the different types of Encryptions. All they know is they are getting it.
Heck even $20 Cheap Chinese Radios have built in free Encryption.
Most end users do not know the difference between the different types of Encryptions. All they know is they are getting it.
Heck even $20 Cheap Chinese Radios have built in free Encryption.
There it is - no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. When spending multi-millions for a new radio system, most depts will logically just go all the way.
AB5ID
Member
We are past the point of no return. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead and stream it all!
radiopro52
Member
I doubt it'll be viable after all public safety agencies switch to encryption. You may still be able to stream ham radio repeater feeds, but I don't see the average person being interested in that.
Seems counterproductive to continue to stream public safety comms while, at the same time, being aware that streaming their comms plays a major role in agencies decisions to use encryption. You end up having to shut down your stream anyway, and as a bonus you also deny everyone else the ability to listen via their scanner. I'm not trying to say that boycotting streaming will completely end encryption, but I do think it would slow the spread and maybe we can keep scanning for a bit longer.
100% correct. Very few beyond other hams, SWL's want to listen to ham radio repeaters, except in times of crisis as we saw with the North Carolina repeater after the hurricane last Fall. Even air traffic comms do not have the same listener base. Just checked Live ATC and there are 3,225 listeners total compared to over 42,000 on Broadcastify at the moment.
It would be great if a goodwill gesture would slow encryption plans but we will likely never know. Certainly the ability to stream to phones was the real game changer
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Well, I think that's unlikely to change much.
One common thing I've seen throughout these encryption discussions is that there are those individuals that don't/can't/won't understand the reason agencies are going encrypted.
I get it that people are passionate about the hobby. I get it that people have been listening to police traffic since Marconi was a child. I get it that people have invested money in their equipment.
But times have changed. There are real, documented requirements to protect information and law enforcement agencies are starting to be held to that.
Feed delays don't protect CJI/PII in any way and don't meet the FBI/DOJ requirements. Only a redacted audio feed do that. But the redaction has to be 100% accurate/perfect, no exceptions, and that's difficult to guarantee. Agencies are not willing to accept those risks to satisfy a small group of individuals.
Giving select individuals encryption keys or radios does not protect CJI/PII in any way and does not meet the requirements.
Not all agencies have access to multiple channels/talk groups to allow switching traffic. Also, the CJI/PII requirements do not leave any room for mistakes if an officer or dispatcher accidentally talks over the wrong channel. Discipline can enforce that, but not prevent it.
Agencies that are using delayed feeds are going to eventually need to meet the FBI/DOJ requirements. It's just a matter of time.
Everyone is going to have an opinion on this subject. Mine is that I'd not invest in a new scanner with the plan to listen to local law enforcement agencies. Writing is on the wall, and encryption is not going away.
@mmckenna I've always used my scanners to listen to services besides public safety, but I did not need digital scanners at the time to listen to the other services I was interested in. (air, marine, ham, business band, itinerants, taxis, etc.) Those were purchased solely in response to local public safety depts going digital. Now the majority of those depts have gone "E". Of course, now the digital scanners do have usefulness for some of those other services.
You just described reality above. It is what is. I'll be sticking with the hobby but have no plans to invest in new equipment. I'm not buying a new radio to chase every new mode that comes along, like Tetra.
You just described reality above. It is what is. I'll be sticking with the hobby but have no plans to invest in new equipment. I'm not buying a new radio to chase every new mode that comes along, like Tetra.
It's not BS. It's in the latest version of the FBI CJIS Security Policy. It requires that CJI must be encrypted in transmission and at rest. At least 128-bit encryption must be used, but agencies are encouraged to use stronger algorithms such as AES 256.
It does not provide a limited definition of "transmission", so it is interpreted to include radio transmission.
I could provide you the link, but feel free to search it on your own and see for yourself that it's for real. They've told us that it will be audited starting this fall. Any LE agency that likes having their NCIC terminal is gonna have to toe the line.
(And when you see how many pages make up that document, you'll see that there is so much more to this than just the radio that it is mind-boggling. Glad I'm retiring next month.) 😁
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