The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

[BinaryMode]

To plays Devil's advocate, the whitepaper entitled: Insecurity in Public-Safety Communications: APCO Project 25, published January 2012 does go into some of the hacker stuff that one could do...

But actually breaking AES 256 is not happening anytime soon without some serious server resources and good reliable Intel and metadata to help reduce the brute force. This is what you would do now with Hashcat or John The Ripper... Although not for P25 encryption.


Speaking of Ferris Brewer's Day Off, I thought this was funny.

 

[KevinC]

Speaking of Ferris Brewer's Day Off, I thought this was funny.

Who is Ferris Brewer?

 

[INDY72]

Though Beuller is still absent.

 

[AK9R]

Who is Ferris Brewer?

I think he works at Starbucks now.

 

[12dbsinad]

To plays Devil's advocate, the whitepaper entitled: Insecurity in Public-Safety Communications: APCO Project 25, published January 2012 does go into some of the hacker stuff that one could do...

But actually breaking AES 256 is not happening anytime soon without some serious server resources and good reliable Intel and metadata to help reduce the brute force. This is what you would do now with Hashcat or John The Ripper... Although not for P25 encryption.


Speaking of Ferris Brewer's Day Off, I thought this was funny.

I bet Elon Musk could do it

 

[Echo4Thirty]

I bet Elon Musk could do it

The solution to this problem (and often others) is to throw money and resources at the problem until its figured out. They didnt crack Enigma in WW2 with one guy in a basement, they had numerous smartie guys with tons of money and tons of new fangled inventions in various nations to do it. Even then, it was not an overnight thing. AES? You need many orders of magnitues more than Enigma.

 

[kayn1n32008]

i've not read a valid argument for encryption.

Encryption is used to keep unauthorized listeners, from listening. If you are not a member/employee of the agency that uses 2-way radio comms, then you are unauthorized. People listening with scanners fall in the 'unauthorized' category. Hence, AES256. 6

LE is just daring us to shut it off and force a downgrade attack, or a side channel attack, and when they know how cheap and easy the whole radio system can be shut down, then they'll regret the vendors who set them up for failure. and it's better off avoided for all sorts of technological reasons. I met dozens of people like myself at defcon who already automate attacks.

Good luck with that sport. I look forward to seeing the creative charges they come up with when you get caught.

encryption is unwise. it's certainly not the secrecy they're after.

It's privacy they are after. AES256 gives them that privacy.

i just wouldn't dare the hardcore long time radio crowd.

L. M. F. A. O.

You ain't doing **** bro.

 

[kayn1n32008]

The solution to this problem (and often others) is to throw money and resources at the problem until its figured out. They didnt crack Enigma in WW2 with one guy in a basement, they had numerous smartie guys with tons of money and tons of new fangled inventions in various nations to do it. Even then, it was not an overnight thing. AES? You need many orders of magnitues more than Enigma.

And a new algorithm will be developed, with a much larger keyspace than is currently used, and the games will continue. It's no different than what happened to DES. Processing power got to the point where a 56bit keyspace could be exhausted in a relatively short period of time.

Quantum computing will eventually make AES256 look as weak DES56 is now to modern GPU processors.

At the end of the day, the *****ing and moaning about encryption, and encrypted public safety comms will continue on.

 

[INDY72]

And a new algorithm will be developed, with a much larger keyspace than is currently used, and the games will continue. It's no different than what happened to DES. Processing power got to the point where a 56bit keyspace could be exhausted in a relatively short period of time.

Quantum computing will eventually make AES256 look as weak DES56 is now to modern GPU processors.

At the end of the day, the *****ing and moaning about encryption, and encrypted public safety comms will continue on.

And then they will go TDMA control channels with encryption and encryption on talkgroups and good luck to you. Whee!

 

[kayn1n32008]

Ill refrain from posting why this is a bad idea, but if you think a downgrade attack will work on an encrypted radio system, you clearly do not understand how encyphered P25 (or DMR, or NXDN for that matter) emissions work.

Dude is just throwing out all the buzzwords.

As for why they encrypt? Working with several different agencies on various different state/local systems, it boiled down to a simple concept: People external to the agency who could listen couldnt keep their mouths shut, including the one time one of them served a warrant and their was a scanner that just happened to not have the tac talkgroup in it. The bottom line is that its never as a result of those who have a scanner and just want to listen. Its the ones that take that data and either throw it on facebook or somewhere else. Or show up to harrass them.

This. The compete lack of a barrier to entry. I'll leave it there so we don't piss off the mods.

 

[kayn1n32008]

And then they will go TDMA control channels with encryption and encryption on talkgroups and good luck to you. Whee!

They don't even need to use TDMA. Just encrypt the control channel. Game over, not even Metadata. All you get is a carrier on a particular frequency centre.

 

[BinaryMode]

I think he works at Starbucks now.

HAHAHA! Oops.

But yeah, today in the 21st century that's what you do when you take the day off, you know? LOL!

 

[BinaryMode]

At the end of the day, the *****ing and moaning about encryption, and encrypted public safety comms will continue on.

As it should be. The right of the people to express their free speech and the need for transparency....

At the end of the day, people need to realize we REALLY do live in a dystopia world where most public safety can't even offer up a 30 minute delayed feed. Those public safety agencies that currently do I applaud and thank them for their willingness to be open and transparent while at the same time keep certain Comms secure.

Now law enforcement departments that chose full on NSA level TOP SECRET for the whole enchilada up to fire departments are tossing out this BS - yes BS about the Fed's (FBI) mandating privacy with data and records. That's been the Norm since I don't know when with NCIC and dispatch using secure phone lines and whatnot. It's just rather peculiar how I'm hearing this and what I call an excuse used all of a sudden in addition to the other definitive list of excuses for why NSA TOP SECRET encryption like the aforementioned "officer safety," ya know? Especially when data (licenses plates and DL checks, etc) can be on a dedicated talkgroup (channel). At least that's generally the case for my area. And understandably may be different in other areas. But you could direct all data to talkgroup XYZW and leave dispatch in the clear. TAC channels and whatnot can remain encrypted as they should be.

It's a shame what America has become today. I truly do feel like the quasi SS (Schutzstaffel) is at the helm of the Executive branch (law enforcement). Especially with all the surplus military crap. And I can bet at least three state lotteries many millions of others in this the U.S. share in that same sentiment. But don't get me wrong, I support the police of course. But there's a fine line between massive government run a muck and Andy Griffith like it should be. Then again, due to what is social disarray and social upheaval who's catalyst IS the government, our society in this country is not like that of Norway et al.

The "swamp," or what I like to call the sewer, is in all branches and all agencies it seems. Local, state and federal. Even the bloody EPA and its hundreds of NV goggles for what ever the hell reason. Did I make use of the word dystopia yet?


Generals gathered in their masses, just like witches at black masses... ♫♯♪♫♯♪

 

[buddrousa]

And you can thank THUGS, CRIMINALS, DOPE DEALERS and others for using Radio Comms to aid in the ACTIVITY and know where they are and when they are responding.

 

[drdispatch]

And you can thank THUGS, CRIMINALS, DOPE DEALERS and others for using Radio Comms to aid in the ACTIVITY and know where they are and when they are responding.

Which has been illegal for decades, but is it enforced/prosecuted?

 

[KevinC]

And you can thank THUGS, CRIMINALS, DOPE DEALERS and others for using Radio Comms to aid in the ACTIVITY and know where they are and when they are responding.

Which has been illegal for decades, but is it enforced/prosecuted?

I'm sure I posted this before and probably in this thread...

We had an agency go encrypted with the reason of they have caught many criminals using "scanner apps". Doesn't sound like those apps were doing them any good to me if they got caught.

Oh yeah, their rates of robbery/theft/burglary have only gone up since they went encrypted. Not saying encryption caused it, it just didn't help reduce crime.

 

[pitheus]

Having spent some time in law enforcement, more criminals, at least in my area get caught by citizens via the police using open air transmissions to dispatch units and updates. Many civilians will be made aware of the crime via their scanners and some that are in that area start taking notice of strangers in the area or suspicious activity. Some hear the vehicle tag number or description of person and began to search for it and many civilians find it before officers spot it. It takes a good mix of police and civilians working together to take a chunk out of crimes. Personally I hate encryption, always have and always will. A good example happened the other as a male robbed a store in my town, dispatch gave it out to officers and a civilian heard it on his mobile scanner, was in the area and saw the male as described walking, darting in and out of a back street, he called the males location in to 911 which in turn related it to officers whom still were 4 minutes out from the area. Well, the man had managed to get a mile away on foot between the dispatch 1st call and the civilian update. Another civilian on the west side of town heard the location and saw the male also whom had now taken a break on a bench outside a business 1.5 miles from the site of the crime, called it in to 911 and gave the new location out to responding officers whom were searching back near the crime scene. Finally 2 units converged on the guy and made the arrest. Had not the 2 good citizens stayed on top of this the cops would not have caught him, the business would be out the cash and jewels and the criminal would probably have committed another crime by the end of the day.

 

[BinaryMode]

To froth up the soap box, the fact the government (Executive branch) thinks they can operate in a clandestine way like the former KGB or Hitler SS elites all the while they claim "public safety" demonstrates to this observer that we are not only living in a Feudal-like environment, but one that is more tyrannical and not as free as what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Again, to this observer.

You can see what the Founding Fathers had in mind just by reading the first part of the Declaration of Independence. And I quote from the National Archives:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"

Declaration of Independence: A Transcription

Note: The following text is a transcription of the Stone Engraving of the parchment Declaration of Independence (the document on display in the Rotunda at the National Archives Museum.) The spelling and punctuation reflects the original.

www.archives.gov

- Dispatch for state and local public safety Comms needs transparency.

- Dispatch for state and local public safety Comms needs to provide a feed with a mandatory minimum/maximum five (5) minute delay to ALL citizenry by order of an amendment to the state's constitution.

But no, lets legalize weed, magic mushrooms, and next on the docket, I kid you not is probably heroin and every other stupid thing imaginable or tax...

Anyway...

Executive Order 14074 of May 25, 2022

Federal Register :: Request Access

Advancing Effective, Accountable Policing and Criminal Justice Practices To Enhance Public Trust and Public Safety


The word "transparency" is mentioned 6, count them, six times.

Section 1. Policy. Our criminal justice system must respect the dignity and rights of all persons and adhere to our fundamental obligation to ensure fair and impartial justice for all. This is imperative—not only to live up to our principles as a Nation, but also to build secure, safe, and healthy communities. Protecting public safety requires close partnerships between law enforcement and the communities it serves. Public safety therefore depends on public trust, and public trust in turn requires that our criminal justice system as a whole embodies fair and equal treatment, transparency, and accountability.

Building trust between law enforcement agencies and the communities they are sworn to protect and serve also requires accountability for misconduct and transparency through data collection and public reporting.

(ii) assess the feasibility of what records from the Accountability Database may be accessible to the public and the manner in which any such records may be accessible by the public, taking into account the critical need for public trust, transparency, and accountability, as well as the duty to protect the safety, privacy, and due process rights of law enforcement officers who may be identified in the Accountability Database, including obligations under the Privacy Act of 1974 and any other relevant legal obligations; protection of sensitive law enforcement operations; and victim, witness, and source confidentiality.

Within 365 days of the date of this order, the Working Group and the Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy shall issue a report to the President that assesses current data collection, use, and data transparency practices with respect to law enforcement activities...

This Executive Order is about transparency and accountability with law enforcement and the community which should extend to radio communications as well. To this end, an Internet based delayed feed should be provided for dispatch Comms only or via a dedicated simulcast delayed talkgroup over the air. Data (license plates, DL, records, etc) should be conducted over a dedicated encrypted talkgroup or MDT. TAC channels and whatnot should be encrypted.

A delayed dispatch only feed would sure add to transparency and accountability if you ask me. Especially since I read damn near every week on this website one department after another through the encryption switch. Damn shame if you ask me. Real damn shame.

 

[W8KIC]

Executive Order 14074 of May 25, 2022

Federal Register :: Request Access

Advancing Effective, Accountable Policing and Criminal Justice Practices To Enhance Public Trust and Public Safety


The word "transparency" is mentioned 6, count them, six times.















This Executive Order is about transparency and accountability with law enforcement and the community which should extend to radio communications as well. To this end, an Internet based delayed feed should be provided for dispatch Comms only or via a dedicated simulcast delayed talkgroup over the air. Data (license plates, DL, records, etc) should be conducted over a dedicated encrypted talkgroup or MDT. TAC channels and whatnot should be encrypted.

A delayed dispatch only feed would sure add to transparency and accountability if you ask me. Especially since I read damn near every week on this website one department after another through the encryption switch. Damn shame if you ask me. Real damn shame.

Plus, the optics would actually be a real POSITIVE for law enforcement, which has been quite challenging for them over the past several decades, much of which, in my own opinion, has been unwarranted to say the least. Obviously, that hasn’t always been the case and you deal with those exceptions on a case by case basis, as they should! A delayed dispatch feed is NOT something that should send chills up the spine of those who‘re in a position of authority. Chicago PD has been doing just that for quite a while now and it’s past time for those who’re so utterly paranoid about such unwarranted fears to consult with them on how best to implement such a system or protocol in their own back yard. The technology obviously already exists and there’s simply no reason for any further delay as far as implementation is concerned.

 

[10yrswmy396XT]

I paid RADIOREFERENCE for 15 years to get the programming for my 396XT.
Then they started broadcastify and it was included in my membership.
so how much do I lower the fee I’m sending to RR for access to only their original
content, that’s minus the amount they charge for broadcastify?
it’s been a long time since I was 12 years old, upgrading my scanners and
keeping them nearby for sleep aids.
now they just blurt out aircraft channels which is quite boring.
lets all bid farewell to broadcastify and let them roll over in their
support for what citizens deserve, some channels that tell us the fire is on its way.

ill just put up more outdoor cams to watch for the smoke.
Gee, what fun.

so LE should limit their encryption to their critical events, not all their stuff.