Why P25 phase II instead of DMR tier 3?

[mmckenna]

What you seem to be missing is, this IS happening, continuing to add PD, Fire, to the system, choosing this over grant handouts.

No one is saying that it's not happening. Most of us have agreed that for some agencies, that's a good approach.

It IS in the minority, though.

Before radios like the VP-8000, NX-5000 and others came along, agencies had to choose carefully what systems they went with to be able to maintain interoperability with adjacent agencies.

As often is the case, there is not one solution that works for everyone. Sounds like your group has found something that works in your situation. Congrats. Others have found other approaches that work for them.

It's not a contest.

 

[Trbogeek]

Let' see the results of a real drive test data with inbound and outbound round trip body worn portable coverage. The "surrounding county system" has how many RF subsites and what was the coverage spec'ed at? Without knowing specifics, it's like saying "my car is faster than yours".

There are those on RR that know of the system I'm referencing, surrounding systems, and their issues. This is hardly a case of who's car is faster, but stating facts. Unless community X gets grant funding for system design, Astro infrastructure, backbone, radios, and staffing to supoort the above, there will be far more practical solutions. I wonder how mankind survived without P25

 

[MTS2000des]

What you seem to be missing is, this IS happening, continuing to add PD, Fire, to the system, choosing this over grant handouts. 7k+ radios on the system, growing monthly. You're entitled to your opinions, but it's difficult to ignore the facts, evidence to the contrary.

Your ducking and dodging, I get it, you run an ESMR- but the fact is it is not a public safety system. What interference protection exists on your licenses? What in building coverage in critical structures is guaranteed in WRITING? What security is in place to prevent intrusion to your facilities?

If we want to talk facts, show me an actual round trip portable coverage test result with a DAQ of 3.4 or greater with body worn portable coverage guaranteed 98 percent availability within a service area. I'll be patiently waiting.

 

[MTS2000des]

What you seem to be missing is, this IS happening, continuing to add PD, Fire, to the system, choosing this over grant handouts. 7k+ radios on the system, growing monthly. You're entitled to your opinions, but it's difficult to ignore the facts, evidence to the contrary.

And just about every agency within 100 miles of any consequence of me that bought school bus grade radios and FNE are replacing it with...wait for it...public safety grade P25 systems 10 years later. Not small counties either. Ask them why.

 

[Trbogeek]

And just about every agency within 100 miles of any consequence of me that bought school bus grade radios and FNE are replacing it with...wait for it...public safety grade P25 systems 10 years later. Not small counties either. Ask them why.

Grant money aside, they can replace their radios every 5 yrs, for 20 yrs, with the existing radio cost (APX vs XPR, R7), and again, we're not talking the infrastructure costs. Replacement radios rarely happen, or needed.

 

[Trbogeek]

Your ducking and dodging, I get it, you run an ESMR- but the fact is it is not a public safety system. What interference protection exists on your licenses? What in building coverage in critical structures is guaranteed in WRITING? What security is in place to prevent intrusion to your facilities?

If we want to talk facts, show me an actual round trip portable coverage test result with a DAQ of 3.4 or greater with body worn portable coverage guaranteed 98 percent availability within a service area. I'll be patiently waiting.

No ducking here at all. Its public safety when Public Safety is on it, it meets the definition of "Public Safety Grade". Interference protection is handled with FB8 channels (80%+ in service). RF site systems built higher performance than Moto, or others. Street level coverage is 100%, in building (talk in, talk out) 98% in metropolitan, and surrounding. Again, the fact that PD, Fire, EMS, continue to move to this system, after extensive testing, communications with other agencies about their experiences with the system, shows it's a much better solution than free P25 grant radios, running analog, or single site, repeater. This isn't a competition, but it's not blindly buying into, repeating, the P25 press release. P25 is no better than other formats, when under, over, incorrectly, designed and deployed, which is very common.

 

[xmo]

"Street level coverage is 100%, in building (talk in, talk out) 98% in metropolitan,"
-
Youbetcha! Claims like this help clarify the validity of the other assertions that have been made.

 

[Trbogeek]

"Street level coverage is 100%, in building (talk in, talk out) 98% in metropolitan,"
-
Youbetcha! Claims like this help clarify the validity of the other assertions that have been made.

What validity could i possibility show you? You want engineering drawings? Prop studies? Affidavits from users? Please ..

The fact that agency's are moving to it should be enough. Do you actually believe your own propaganda? Do you believe you have the secret sauce in radio, that only P25 will survive? As someone stated earlier (wait for it) no! The world is doing just fine, with all the features, required durability, at a fraction of the cost. Is what it is. Without grant money, P25 wouldn’t exist. Simply too expensive, and it doesn't bring anything, other systems can't also do, the table. If your hanging your hat on a rugged radio, yes, higher tier P25 (not all) are more durable in extreme conditions, but thats it. I keep saying, this isn't a contest, at least here as best system keeps picking up subscribers, growing, while local counties hold their hand out for more public monies, under the guise of Officer safety.

 

[speedway_navigator]

A Local DMR trunk system, currently out performs surrounding county systems, which has prompted many Public Safety agencies to explore, migration to this system. Integrated consoles (currently 198 channel resources, 47 console positions), interoperability, all required features P25 offers, at a realistic price.

Johnson county Indiana went to an NXDN system for backup a few years ago because the state's P-25 system was failing intermittently for them. I think it might have been not enough sites. Our county added 2 after the state put the first 2 in, that helped with indoor coverage.

 

[MTS2000des]

What validity could i possibility show you? You want engineering drawings? Prop studies? Affidavits from users? Please ..

The fact that agency's are moving to it should be enough. Do you actually believe your own propaganda? Do you believe you have the secret sauce in radio, that only P25 will survive? As someone stated earlier (wait for it) no! The world is doing just fine, with all the features, required durability, at a fraction of the cost. Is what it is. Without grant money, P25 wouldn’t exist. Simply too expensive, and it doesn't bring anything, other systems can't also do, the table. If your hanging your hat on a rugged radio, yes, higher tier P25 (not all) are more durable in extreme conditions, but thats it. I keep saying, this isn't a contest, at least here as best system keeps picking up subscribers, growing, while local counties hold their hand out for more public monies, under the guise of Officer safety.

So what is the fail soft plan? Oh that's right, there is no fail soft in DMR. How does the network handle site trunking? How do users know there is a network failure?

I'll give you a real example of how a nearby "public safety" LCP system had dangerous failure modes. When a site becomes disconnected, SUs don't indicate they are in an isolated site operation. Wide area trunking just goes away and they keep on talking. Officer is on a traffic stop, giving key details like subject not compliant, etc. Other officers who's SUs are affiliated with the disconnected site, but dispatch is completely unaware as TG is silent to them.

This agency is now moving off this system and procured a $34 million dollar P25 simulcast system to replace it, and the other reason, their XPR SUs are discontinued. The 7550e is gone and replaced by the R7.

The title to the thread was "why P25 phase 2 and not DMR". I think the failsoft, or lack thereof, is a prime reason along with the many others. But we get it, you're SaiaNet is what "everyone is going to" so that must make it like, kind and quality to a must more costly and engineered P25 public safety grade system and those of us who bought P25 are just dumb and "drinking the KoolAid".

I sleep very well at night knowing MSI NOC monitors my core. My stakeholders and 7800 subscribers, 4 dispatch centers and citizens know they have the right tool for the job. More importantly, I'm never going to worry about having to answer to OSHA or other three letter agencies in the event of....why I chose something not intended for the application trying to save a few bucks. "It's all good, until it's not"

 

[Trbogeek]

So what is the fail soft plan? Oh that's right, there is no fail soft in DMR. How does the network handle site trunking? How do users know there is a network failure?

I'll give you a real example of how a nearby "public safety" LCP system had dangerous failure modes. When a site becomes disconnected, SUs don't indicate they are in an isolated site operation. Wide area trunking just goes away and they keep on talking. Officer is on a traffic stop, giving key details like subject not compliant, etc. Other officers who's SUs are affiliated with the disconnected site, but dispatch is completely unaware as TG is silent to them.

This agency is now moving off this system and procured a $34 million dollar P25 simulcast system to replace it, and the other reason, their XPR SUs are discontinued. The 7550e is gone and replaced by the R7.

The title to the thread was "why P25 phase 2 and not DMR". I think the failsoft, or lack thereof, is a prime reason along with the many others. But we get it, you're SaiaNet is what "everyone is going to" so that must make it like, kind and quality to a must more costly and engineered P25 public safety grade system and those of us who bought P25 are just dumb and "drinking the KoolAid".

I sleep very well at night knowing MSI NOC monitors my core. My stakeholders and 7800 subscribers, 4 dispatch centers and citizens know they have the right tool for the job. More importantly, I'm never going to worry about having to answer to OSHA or other three letter agencies in the event of....why I chose something not intended for the application trying to save a few bucks. "It's all good, until it's not" simply don't

 

[DeoVindice]

So what is the fail soft plan? Oh that's right, there is no fail soft in DMR. How does the network handle site trunking? How do users know there is a network failure?

I'll give you a real example of how a nearby "public safety" LCP system had dangerous failure modes. When a site becomes disconnected, SUs don't indicate they are in an isolated site operation. Wide area trunking just goes away and they keep on talking. Officer is on a traffic stop, giving key details like subject not compliant, etc. Other officers who's SUs are affiliated with the disconnected site, but dispatch is completely unaware as TG is silent to them.

Been there, done that with LCP in a chemical processing plant, with exactly the symptoms you described. Often we had to key up several times for the control room to receive calls. CapMax at least gives audible site trunking warnings.

Other exciting TRBO failure modes:
- OOR with no audible indicator
- Extended registration/affiliation times when roaming sites
- Calls with no audio
- Extended call setup times

...and more! It's a world of fun!

 

[Trbogeek]

The system doesn’t allow single site trunking, has fall back network paths. Like any system, there will be failures, and how you engineer the solution to that failure scenario, is what sets these apart. No seperation, overlapping sites, and 1% of $34 million to the community. This is no sales pitch, simply how many public saftey agency's look at this. Push high dollar radio systems, compare features, this system will win Pepsi challenge every time

 

[MTS2000des]

The system doesn’t allow single site trunking, has fall back network paths. Like any system, there will be failures, and how you engineer the solution to that failure scenario, is what sets these apart. No seperation, overlapping sites, and 1% of $34 million to the community. This is no sales pitch, simply how many public saftey agency's look at this. Push high dollar radio systems, compare features, this system will win Pepsi challenge every time

I could use the same logic on why public safety agencies should stop buying Ford Police UIs, Chevy Tahoe PPVs, and switch to Hyundai Santa Fe's and Toyota RAV-4s instead but I am sure after a few dead cops from low impact MVAs that would be survivable in a purpose built vehicle would prove my point.

It's a dangerous game I won't play. If police and fire officials do in other jurisdictions, that is their choice and their consequence. I'll be guilty of "spending millions on high dollar radio systems" versus being guilty of trying to use the wrong tool for the job and people getting hurt or killed.

 

[Trbogeek]

I could use the same logic on why public safety agencies should stop buying Ford Police UIs, Chevy Tahoe PPVs, and switch to Hyundai Santa Fe's and Toyota RAV-4s instead but I am sure after a few dead cops from low impact MVAs that would be survivable in a purpose built vehicle would prove my point.

It's a dangerous game I won't play. If police and fire officials do in other jurisdictions, that is their choice and their consequence. I'll be guilty of "spending millions on high dollar radio systems" versus being guilty of trying to use the wrong tool for the job and people getting hurt or killed.

Very dramatic, and still wrong. By your statements, anything other than P25 is safety risk, yet many, many agencies still are analog, so unless they spend millions, adopt P25 II, they're at risk. It's easy to gold plate, preach the press releases when you are burning public funds, all in the spirit of safety, but far more depts. can't afford the cost of that model, and get all those features, performance, with far more prudent systems. Those on this system are happy with it's performance, features, and have actively promoted it to other agencies, that are now ramping up to make the change. About a year ago, there was a large wearhouse fire, all First responders wearing APX4000 on an analog system. One didn't go home. Was that the radios fault, system, man down signaling? I'm sure there is some Federal report breaking down stats for various equipment fatalities, but I'd be willing to bet nothing about one correctly working system over another. Working is working, PTT is PTT. Don't get too wrapped up in the hype

 

[KevinC]

I just wonder how long you two can keep going back and forth. 😁

 

[MTS2000des]

Why bother. It is clear SaiaNet enjoys having cities and towns in one county in upstate NY promote a business grade radio solution over a purpose built network. Their heroes of the taxpayer until they're not. There is no hype about P25 being purpose built for public safety, or three big vendors would be out of business if their products/systems didn't do what they are made to do.

Just remember these words: it's all good...until it's not. Meanwhile, back to burning public funds...

 

[dickie757]

How about the choice of XPR in petrochemical, pharma, and grain plants? Would APX/Astro suit them better?

 

[Trbogeek]

I just wonder how long you two can keep going back and forth. 😁

Why bother. It is clear SaiaNet enjoys having cities and towns in one county in upstate NY promote a business grade radio solution over a purpose built network. Their heroes of the taxpayer until they're not. There is no hype about P25 being purpose built for public safety, or three big vendors would be out of business if their products/systems didn't do what they are made to do.

Just remember these words: it's all good...until it's not. Meanwhile, back to burning public funds...

Yup, while we're back to collecting them ....

 

[MTS2000des]

Very dramatic, and still wrong. By your statements, anything other than P25 is safety risk, yet many, many agencies still are analog, so unless they spend millions, adopt P25 II, they're at risk.

I never made this statement, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I did state that DMR is not the right tool for the job in context to the thread and I stand by that.