A Coalition of Chicago Based Media Organizations Joins Together in Regards to CPD's Encryption

[thunderr10]

it's all going to be encrypted regardless of media or the scanner/radio crowd. If you need to know, file FOIA.

Yea, I'll do that while I hear a hundred sirens going by.

 

[werinshades]

it's all going to be encrypted regardless of media or the scanner/radio crowd. If you need to know, file FOIA.

Had an opportunity to talk to one of the mayoral candidates one-on-one recently. After all the media folks left, I approached and talked about the WGN story on encryption. I was able to "dumb it down" as to what the real concern is. A great chance to explain the different radio systems, why tact/narcotics and car-to-car should always be "unavailable/encrypted". It was a good time to plead the case, and received a commitment of evaluating it's effectiveness in crime reduction. I recommended to ask for crime statistics from the 5th and 22nd Districts, since it was the first zone to switch as a good start. As we've beat the drum here, CPD radio was in desperate need of an overhaul, and going to digital ended CFD's "rogue radio" issue that was a sticking point for the switch. During the conversation, it was mentioned that some of the "faith based organizations" also echoed similar concerns about responses to incidents to console victims and families. Chicago politicians rely on optics, and if it looks like someone is hiding something, it won't go over well. I expect to hear more about this in the coming weeks, so it's not a done deal as you try and make it out to be.

 

[Chicago2210]

Had an opportunity to talk to one of the mayoral candidates one-on-one recently. After all the media folks left, I approached and talked about the WGN story on encryption. I was able to "dumb it down" as to what the real concern is. A great chance to explain the different radio systems, why tact/narcotics and car-to-car should always be "unavailable/encrypted". It was a good time to plead the case, and received a commitment of evaluating it's effectiveness in crime reduction. I recommended to ask for crime statistics from the 5th and 22nd Districts, since it was the first zone to switch as a good start. As we've beat the drum here, CPD radio was in desperate need of an overhaul, and going to digital ended CFD's "rogue radio" issue that was a sticking point for the switch. During the conversation, it was mentioned that some of the "faith based organizations" also echoed similar concerns about responses to incidents to console victims and families. Chicago politicians rely on optics, and if it looks like someone is hiding something, it won't go over well. I expect to hear more about this in the coming weeks, so it's not a done deal as you try and make it out to be.

As I said it's on the ballot. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Ensnared]

"Democracy dies in Darkness." Washington Post

 

[ScanRafael]

I've been saying for several years that there are likely 1st and 4th Amendment issues around encryption. I won't beat all surprised if this ends up in the federal courts.

I've heard arguments before that encryption is a 1A violation. What does encryption have to do with the protection from unreasonable searches and seizures?

 

[marcotor]

I've heard arguments before that encryption is a 1A violation. What does encryption have to do with the protection from unreasonable searches and seizures?

Or from the Government restricting the exercise of speech? I would think if there was anything to it on Constitutional grounds, it would have been heard/decided long ago. I have looked and never found a "right to listen to the PD" in the document. The courts have ruled many times that government can keep secrets. So those "rumors" about 1st, 4th, 14th, or 18th Amendment arguments are, I think, wishful thinking.

 

[mmckenna]

are, I think, wishful thinking.

Yup. Just like you can't go down to the police station and borrow a police car, even though your taxpayer dollars paid for it. Or listen in on their phone calls. Or rummage through their hard drives. Or put your feet up on the chiefs desk.

 

[werinshades]

Yup. Just like you can't go down to the police station and borrow a police car, even though your taxpayer dollars paid for it. Or listen in on their phone calls. Or rummage through their hard drives. Or put your feet up on the chiefs desk.

As I've mentioned and been sanctioned for posting my opinion on this, we've done this all to ourselves. How many times are Police & Fire Chiefs being interviewed by media and frequently mention scanners and "criminals can just listen to us on their phones". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they're referring to. Keep in mind to all the newcomers, youngins and lurkers, we've had "portable" scanners for years...back to the crystal days. At times, the Public Safety community would reach out to us to assist in programming a scanner, or a group of firefighters would ask you to program the new house scanner, and might get a lunch out of the deal.

What has changed? Let's look at the people who respond to scenes. Working for CFD on the ambulance for 27 years, gives me a little more insight to this than some here. Unsolicited tow truck drivers have felt compelled to open the doors of the ambulance asking our patients if they want the car towed, and to sign a document. This happened many times before CPD arrived, and told them to get the f-out on more than one occasion. How did they hear about this? Well...we did that.

We can sometimes be "too helpful" especially with those we never seen before here, or ever met. Has anyone with criminal intentions ever looked through these forums...yes. Over the years I've been privately messaged asking detailed questions on CPD and CFD radio systems, that based on my posts here was told "I knew alot." Still haven't figured out why input frequencies with PL's were in the database and contributed to the "rogue radios/Baofeng" debacle. Even worse than that, we have many "Twitter kids" who post on Twitter, "real time" events, including the ISP's Carjacking taskforce locations, vehicle descriptions, and even provide real-time tracking of aircraft support. Reckless and dangerous, and ask how much longer before more encryption is coming?

It's unfortunate that this type of conversation makes some very uncomfortable, and at times borders the posting rules. But many of us have seen, the dangers of technology and how this hobby has been ruined. The response of "there are other things to listen to" are echoed throughout these forums. But I ask, if you're a railfan and the migration to NXDN begins, how long before those radios have encryption capabilities, if not already? Will some "railfan" sitting by the tracks videotaping be accused of sabotaging a train with hazardous material tankers that derailed? Is that what it will take? Before you answer "no way/never will happen", I never thought I'd see Fire Departments encrypting either.

 

[garys]

At the risk of being sanctioned, I'll say that this is not totally correct. More and more it is the politicians, not the police, who are worried about the public and the press hearing what is going on. Which is where the First Amendment issue arises. The media's ability to report the news is incorporated into the First Amendment as SCOTUS has said time and time again.

The public has a right to know what public employees who are being paid by funds taxed from that same public are doing. Arguably, and I am no a lawyer, hearing dispatch communications is part of that. There are plenty of ways to transmit sensitive information securely without encrypting dispatch channels.

As to EMS, there is NO HIPAA requirement to encrypt radio traffic. There is specific language exempting emergency communications from HIPAA. If you listen to private ambulance traffic you will routinely hear patient names, locations, and medical conditions transmitted over the air. Even services that have mobile data still put a lot over the air via voice.

It's even more baffling why fire departments want to encrypt their dispatch audio.

As I've mentioned and been sanctioned for posting my opinion on this, we've done this all to ourselves. How many times are Police & Fire Chiefs being interviewed by media and frequently mention scanners and "criminals can just listen to us on their phones". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they're referring to. Keep in mind to all the newcomers, youngins and lurkers, we've had "portable" scanners for years...back to the crystal days. At times, the Public Safety community would reach out to us to assist in programming a scanner, or a group of firefighters would ask you to program the new house scanner, and might get a lunch out of the deal.

 

[mastr]

...It's even more baffling why fire departments want to encrypt their dispatch audio.

There is nothing baffling about it. When there is a fire, most FD people would like nothing more than to have no one there except FD, PD and EMS- no crowd of on-lookers, no "wanna-bes", and no news people to make even more people think they should be right there at the time.

 

[garys]

Oddly enough, in the over 200 fires I responded to over the years, not once did a fire officer express a desire not to have people there. Mostly, they didn't care, some were former fire buffs, and if a chief level officer was on scene he spent considerable time talking to the media.

Now, media relations are even more important as they can help public safety agencies get increased funding.

There is nothing baffling about it. When there is a fire, most FD people would like nothing more than to have no one there except FD, PD and EMS- no crowd of on-lookers, no "wanna-bes", and no news people to make even more people think they should be right there at the time.

 

[werinshades]

At the risk of being sanctioned, I'll say that this is not totally correct. More and more it is the politicians, not the police, who are worried about the public and the press hearing what is going on. Which is where the First Amendment issue arises. The media's ability to report the news is incorporated into the First Amendment as SCOTUS has said time and time again.

The public has a right to know what public employees who are being paid by funds taxed from that same public are doing. Arguably, and I am no a lawyer, hearing dispatch communications is part of that. There are plenty of ways to transmit sensitive information securely without encrypting dispatch channels.

As to EMS, there is NO HIPAA requirement to encrypt radio traffic. There is specific language exempting emergency communications from HIPAA. If you listen to private ambulance traffic you will routinely hear patient names, locations, and medical conditions transmitted over the air. Even services that have mobile data still put a lot over the air via voice.

It's even more baffling why fire departments want to encrypt their dispatch audio.

"Right to know" vs "safety" is the issue in this city. We've posted stories on rogue radios being used, and that seemed to have been the straw that was needed to break the camels back. I've been proactive though, and had an opportunity to talk to one of our Mayoral candidates about this. No promises were made, but hearing the other side of this could be to our advantage. "Officer safety" was mentioned more than once as it's being told the reason. We'll see how it goes.

 

[mmckenna]

There is nothing baffling about it. When there is a fire, most FD people would like nothing more than to have no one there except FD, PD and EMS- no crowd of on-lookers, no "wanna-bes", and no news people to make even more people think they should be right there at the time.

Exactly.

I think this is underestimated by many.

I sat in a APCO conference a few years back and there was a large session on encryption and why it was being used. The obvious, CJI/PII, was covered. Then there was an agency that talked about a school shooter they had. Someone heard the radio traffic and shared it on social media. What started off as yet another idiot with a gun, turned into an idiot with a gun, as well as a lot of rightfully concerned parents rushing the school to get their kids out. The agency, trying to secure the perimeter, had a very hard time. They had to pull officers off the hunt and assign them to crowd control. Fire/EMS had a difficult time getting on site due to the traffic. The risk to the public increased greatly.

As a parent, I can understand the reaction.

As first responders, they speakers at the session were explaining how it impacted their response on many levels, and slowed down securing the scene.

First responders need to respond and do their jobs. That's their number 1 priority. Making sure the media is informed happens later. Catering to scanner listeners isn't even on the list.

 

[FFPM571]

Garys. The ability to monitor public safety or any radio communications is a privilege, not a right. Having come from Chicago area for the last 53 year and monitoring Public safety for 40 of it in the clear, Now being in Nashville metro area the last 2 year where EVERYTHING from the Dog Catcher, the school busses, garage trucks and Public safety is Encrypted . I still manage to keep a few radios full of activity. Time and technology has caught up with the the hobby. Thats life.. Get used to it..

 

[N9EXR66]

Guys...IT'S OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[safetypro79]

Here in Salem, Oregon the police have a 30 min delay on a feed and full encryption. Since I’m new to the area ( moved here Aug 2022) I can’t say what an impact encryption has had on those nefarious evil doers.

 

[W8KIC]

Here in Salem, Oregon the police have a 30 min delay on a feed and full encryption. Since I’m new to the area ( moved here Aug 2022) I can’t say what an impact encryption has had on those nefarious evil doers.

I don’t care if they put dispatch on a 30 minute delay. It’s better than nothing.

 

[ctiller]

Exactly.

I think this is underestimated by many.

I sat in a APCO conference a few years back and there was a large session on encryption and why it was being used. The obvious, CJI/PII, was covered. Then there was an agency that talked about a school shooter they had. Someone heard the radio traffic and shared it on social media. What started off as yet another idiot with a gun, turned into an idiot with a gun, as well as a lot of rightfully concerned parents rushing the school to get their kids out. The agency, trying to secure the perimeter, had a very hard time. They had to pull officers off the hunt and assign them to crowd control. Fire/EMS had a difficult time getting on site due to the traffic. The risk to the public increased greatly.

As a parent, I can understand the reaction.

As first responders, they speakers at the session were explaining how it impacted their response on many levels, and slowed down securing the scene.

First responders need to respond and do their jobs. That's their number 1 priority. Making sure the media is informed happens later. Catering to scanner listeners isn't even on the list.

due to the fact that news spreads like wildfire on social media these days, now you can have any incident overblown on there because nobody will know what is going on. imagine, some Karen sees 2 police cars at a school, now it spreads on social media and you have concerned parents showing up not even for a school shooter, but for some kid in a fight with another kid at school or something trivial even. The point is, this will happen whether police radio traffic is encrypted or not (possibly even more).

 

[PrivatelyJeff]

due to the fact that news spreads like wildfire on social media these days, now you can have any incident overblown on there because nobody will know what is going on. imagine, some Karen sees 2 police cars at a school, now it spreads on social media and you have concerned parents showing up not even for a school shooter, but for some kid in a fight with another kid at school or something trivial even. The point is, this will happen whether police radio traffic is encrypted or not (possibly even more).

Yep, though it could possibly be mitigated if public safety agencies could learn to use social media better. None of my local agencies will say anything until well after an event is over, never considering that people may be inadvertently heading into the scene. I help run a community Facebook group and I try to beat people to the punch by giving as much factual (at least as far as radio traffic can be factual) as I can because I have actual public safety training and contacts.

 

[Chicago2210]

Mayor's race update, lightfoot is out. We will see how the encryption issue is handled with a new mayor.