AM radio phased out in some EVs

[AK9R]

Those Highway Advisory/Airport Information and other low power stations are always on AM...

By FCC rule. I believe you are referring to the Travelers Information Service. They can broadcast in the AM band (530 kHz to 1700 kHz) and are limited to a 10 watt transmitter output power, an antenna height no greater than 15 meters (49.2 feet), and a coverage radius of 3 km.

But, I don't think that's what FEMA has in mind. It seems that their plans for AM radio in an emergency is to disseminate information to a widespread audience.

 

[Omega-TI]

But, I don't think that's what FEMA has in mind. It seems that their plans for AM radio in an emergency is to disseminate information to a widespread audience.

What you say is true about what FEMA had in mind. I was pointing out the irony of removing AM radio from cars when the owners of those very cars can benefit from AM radio when driving, which is why those transmitters exist in the first place. To me it's just another reason to avoid EV's. Pay more, get less?

 

[Omega-TI]

Now that I think about it, when I was a kid I used a capacitors to eliminate electrical noise in my AM and SW radios. What are the chances a big-azz capacitor could fix the problem?

Sure, removing something is always cheaper than fixing it, but for what they charge for those vehicles, one would think a fix would be a better solution than sweeping the problem under the carpet by removing something that can be of value to a fair percentage of their customers.

 

[mwjones]

By FCC rule. I believe you are referring to the Travelers Information Service. They can broadcast in the AM band (530 kHz to 1700 kHz) and are limited to a 10 watt transmitter output power, an antenna height no greater than 15 meters (49.2 feet), and a coverage radius of 3 km.

But, I don't think that's what FEMA has in mind. It seems that their plans for AM radio in an emergency is to disseminate information to a widespread audience.

Yes, @Omega-TI and I were referring to Travelers Information Services (TIS). But I also agree that is only one reason cars should still have AM radios.

As I said back in Post 97 and as far back as Post 9 that there are a lot of markets where AM radio is the primary choice, and sometimes the only choice, when it comes to getting local EAS alerts.

As @CrabbyMilton said, TIS can be on Low Power FM as well, but the FCC has only allowed it since 2000, and I suspect many Governments with cash strapped budgets aren't going to invest money to replace a working Low Power AM transmitter with an FM transmitter along with all of the necessary licensing and other changes involved. That's why the number of FM TIS sites are still small compared to their AM counterparts.

 

[mmckenna]

Now that I think about it, when I was a kid I used a capacitors to eliminate electrical noise in my AM and SW radios. What are the chances a big-azz capacitor could fix the problem?

That can certainly help if the noise is coming in through the radio power feed.
It won't help if it's just RFI emitted by something else.

I was behind an electric bus a few months ago, and the RFI was enough to take out a weak AM station. There's one intersection I drive though most work days that has a lot of RFI from the traffic signals (I think) that wipes out the weak AM stations. Lots of other noise making devices along the roads, LED lights, signs, etc...

This isn't a technology issue. It's purely a cost savings issue. It cost money to fix the problem. Most of the industries here are more concerned about shareholder profits than they are anything else. Look at the mess Tesla is making with their auto-drive function and all the accidents. It's obvious that they are not concerned about safety.
The feds pushing this is probably the best approach. The auto makers are not going to address it if it even cost them only 1¢ per vehicle. They'll do the absolute minimum possible. Getting this forced will make them look at the issue and actually fix it.


Consumers want the latest/greatest, and they want it at rock bottom prices. I'm betting if you asked most of them, they wouldn't understand what AM radio is, or that it was missing from their vehicle. Probably very few care as they don't listen to AM radio and wouldn't see any benefit at all in having it. The unlikely event they'd rely on it in an emergency would probably not be a concern.

To be honest, I think we are looking at very fringe cases here. Most probably don't care that AM is missing from their radio. Lets face it, AM radio is, for the most part, a total wasteland. Most consumers wouldn't even care about EAS, and would assume their cell phone would tell them what they need. They might be wrong, they might be right, but I doubt they care. I doubt there would be any huge fall out from this not happening. People will adapt...

 

[CrabbyMilton]

That can certainly help if the noise is coming in through the radio power feed.
It won't help if it's just RFI emitted by something else.

I was behind an electric bus a few months ago, and the RFI was enough to take out a weak AM station. There's one intersection I drive though most work days that has a lot of RFI from the traffic signals (I think) that wipes out the weak AM stations. Lots of other noise making devices along the roads, LED lights, signs, etc...

This isn't a technology issue. It's purely a cost savings issue. It cost money to fix the problem. Most of the industries here are more concerned about shareholder profits than they are anything else. Look at the mess Tesla is making with their auto-drive function and all the accidents. It's obvious that they are not concerned about safety.
The feds pushing this is probably the best approach. The auto makers are not going to address it if it even cost them only 1¢ per vehicle. They'll do the absolute minimum possible. Getting this forced will make them look at the issue and actually fix it.


Consumers want the latest/greatest, and they want it at rock bottom prices. I'm betting if you asked most of them, they wouldn't understand what AM radio is, or that it was missing from their vehicle. Probably very few care as they don't listen to AM radio and wouldn't see any benefit at all in having it. The unlikely event they'd rely on it in an emergency would probably not be a concern.

To be honest, I think we are looking at very fringe cases here. Most probably don't care that AM is missing from their radio. Lets face it, AM radio is, for the most part, a total wasteland. Most consumers wouldn't even care about EAS, and would assume their cell phone would tell them what they need. They might be wrong, they might be right, but I doubt they care. I doubt there would be any huge fall out from this not happening. People will adapt...

I only listen to an AM news/talk radio station and one other all news station as an occasional alternate. I'm confident that programming on both of those very prominent and popular stations would migrate to FM or a digital platform when the AM band is no longer in use for broadcasting as we know it. I still think the AM broadcast band is still useful but the greater long term market will prove me and others who share my view right or wrong.

 

[mmckenna]

I only listen to an AM news/talk radio station and one other all news station as an occasional alternate. I'm confident that programming on both of those very prominent and popular stations would migrate to FM or a digital platform when the AM band is no longer in use for broadcasting as we know it. I still think the AM broadcast band is still useful but the greater long term market will prove me and others who share my view right or wrong.

I think AM radio is struggling, and has been for a while.

Like was said earlier, it has its place, especially in the wide open spaces out west. But it is getting harder and harder to justify. Listeners have lots of choices. AM is trying to find its new groove, but so far hasn't been able to AM stereo failed. Trying to make it digital isn't getting traction. The cost of running a big AM transmitter, maintenance, large tower system, land, etc. is hard to ignore. As it loses listeners, its going to become very difficult for many AM stations to justify their existence.

As someone who enjoys AM DX'ing, and having a list of AM stations I enjoy listening to, that's hard to admit, but when it comes down to it, it's about these stations remaining profitable.

 

[avaloncourt]

I think AM radio is struggling, and has been for a while.

FM has been struggling for a long time. I honestly can't think of anyone I interact with on a regular basis who listen to FM radio. Locally, when I'm in a business that has FM radio playing, there's a whole lot of PSAs being played because they can't sell ad space. Most of the stations around me are owned by the same company and the stations in various counties are playing the same feed. When I worked in FM radio, the competing AM/FM stations were the holder of the EBS receiver at the AM station. We were required to have a leased line to the AM station to be tied into it. If a test was run at the AM station, it broke in on our station.

As for SiriusXM, they've been in financial and listenership woe for a very long time. That's why they merged. There wasn't enough customer base for either to survive. If you know anything about SiriusXM you'd be aware that they're constantly pushing their streaming services because there's more to offer. I don't subscribe to them either. Even DirecTV has been kicking around the thought of going streaming-only which is pretty counter to the market they were trying to serve in the first place.

 

[cc333]

I object to everything being streaming-only, because internet access isn't universal, and I don't think it ever will be. And when there is internet access, reliable throughput cannot always be guaranteed, so most decent quality streams will tend to have dropouts and skips if the connection isn't perfect (and most aren't), and it gets worse on busy networks where most of the bandwidth is used up. Extra high buffering helps some, but then there's tons of lag, and sometimes the connection itself will drop out altogether.

Analog radio, on the other hand, "Just Works" anywhere there's a decent chance of receiving something (and there are many such places), and even signals that aren't perfect are still reasonably listenable because there's no digital cliff effect.

c

 

[mmckenna]

FM has been struggling for a long time. I honestly can't think of anyone I interact with on a regular basis who listen to FM radio.

As for SiriusXM, they've been in financial and listenership woe for a very long time.

I agree.

At one time, FM radio around me was all locally done. Then the big conglomerates started gobbling up stations as fast as they could. Everything seems to be a feed from corporate offices somewhere with local commercial insertion. Local weather reports are stuck in to make it sound like a local hometown station. Way, way too many commercials. Between the awful DJ's/Morning personalities and endless commercials, its difficult to listen to.

There are a few local FM stations around, but they have their own issues.

My wife has Sirius/XM in her truck, but mainly so she could get the 80's channel and a few other things. We're paying <$8 a month, so not an issue as long as it keeps her happy.

My favorites are still 2 AM stations. Neither one is owned by anyone else. Local news by local people, and a lot less commercials.

I'll enjoy it as long as AM (or I) last.

 

[avaloncourt]

I object to everything being streaming-only, because internet access isn't universal, and I don't think it ever will be. And when there is internet access, reliable throughput cannot always be guaranteed, so most decent quality streams will tend to have dropouts and skips if the connection isn't perfect (and most aren't), and it gets worse on busy networks where most of the bandwidth is used up. Extra high buffering helps some, but then there's tons of lag, and sometimes the connection itself will drop out altogether.

Analog radio, on the other hand, "Just Works" anywhere there's a decent chance of receiving something (and there are many such places), and even signals that aren't perfect are still reasonably listenable because there's no digital cliff effect.

c

I agree completely. People are far too overconfident that cell phone voice and data will be there if something bad happens. Much like electricity, they assume it will just work... until it doesn't. It takes a personally-experienced disaster (at some level) for them to realize that it's not as robust as it's made out to be. I can personally attest having been with a federal agency at both the World Trade Center and New Orleans region during Katrina, communications go away really quick when you need it the most.

 

[cc333]

the World Trade Center

You were there? Wow, that must've been an incomprehensibly terrible experience.

I can say that in 2018, there was a big fire nearby (sadly, a normal thing out here in the West) that knocked out some cell towers, which then combined with the flood of emergency calls to cause a communications blackout. Nobody could call or text, and the internet was out, so nobody could check for updates there either. All the phone said was "No Service". The situation was a little better in town, but even a mile or two away became very much dead (which didn't take much then, as out in the mountains, cell service was iffy in the best of times).

I had an active number with 3 of the 4 major carriers in the area (AT&T, Verizon (with fallback to US Cellular, a smaller carrier based out of Chicago), and T-Mobile), and of the whole lot, all were completely dark except for T-Mobile. On a 20 year old phone, no less.

Who says old technology is obsolete? In an emergency, when you need to call for help or information, you go with what works. And if that happens to be a 20 year old phone or an old AM radio, so be it.

Of course, both become useless once there's no longer any signals for them to receive.

c

 

[mwjones]

It looks like the phase out of AM radios is expanding beyond EV's:

Ford to Discontinue AM Radios in Most New Vehicles Starting in 2024

Ford plans to drop AM radios from most of its new vehicles starting in 2024, raising concerns about public safety communication. The automaker had previously announced plans to drop the AM radio from its electric vehicles due to "interference" between the electric drive train and AM reception.

www.breitbart.com

 

[WRQS621]

My area thankfully has 106.1 FM that is all talk. It helps to balance the radio spectrum with WUNC (NPR) on the other end.

 

[12dbsinad]

"The idea that it is a critical safety channel is a bit suspect given that almost all critical communication now is sent through mobile phones.”

Just wait until the big one hits and we realize just how vulnerable we have become. The only thing you'll be able to use your mobile phone for is a flashlight until the battery goes dead. Congestion alone is enough to render the cell network useless, never mind failure.

 

[MCWKen]

While cell phones could relate vital information, they become intrusive, especially when one is trying to sleep (I charge it at night in the utility room where it will not disturb myself or the household).

Before I turned off those infernal notifications, they would set off alerts for areas counties away all hours of the day and night, for reasons that were less than urgent.

Yes, I am fortunate to live in a town where the air raid sirens will wake the dead, those out in the county might not have that luxury. Most have Weather Radios that give them sufficient warning to take cover. South of me, the sirens also cover quite an area along the river from the Nuclear Plant, signs encourage tuning to the local AM radio stations for news and information.

 

[w2xq]

Following the discussion both here and on RadioWorld, I keep thinking about driving across Wyoming from Yellowstone back to Denver one summer day a few years ago. Cell service dropped to 1x and the roadmap disappeared from the phone screen leaving only a moving dot. Nothing on FM or AM except for two AM stations. Despite midday and the usual D-layer absorption, we could listen to 50 kw KMOX-1120 St. Louis and 50 kw WLS-890 Chicago. It was hours before reaching I25 in Cheyenne...

The latest: What Car Companies Told Markey About Radio - Radio World

 

[Grunddiigg]

Maybe there is a big aftermarket opportunity here for engineers to design stereos with AM that limits interference with EV technology?

Car companies are just bowing out and it is very disheartening. Maybe a positive can be made out of it though.

 

[AK9R]

Maybe there is a big aftermarket opportunity here for engineers to design stereos with AM that limits interference with EV technology?

How about the engineers design EV components that don't emit RF energy in the broadcast band...or anywhere else?

 

[Grunddiigg]

How about the engineers design EV components that don't emit RF energy in the broadcast band...or anywhere else?

They are still trying to keep people's houses from burning down when they are charging them lol. RF is a ways out 🤣🤣🤣