California Radio Interoperable System (CRIS)

[Ravenfalls]

What is your take on what this system will ultimately be? Some folks on the other thread have stated it will replace all systems and be a one system, do all, radio system like some states have now, these being states with a much lower population. I don't think so, the website states is will allow interface with and between "similar systems." I think it will be for mutual aid only during incidents involving multiple jurisdictions, but others disagree.

My guess, state agencies will move over like fire Marshall. I'm sure each county will have an EOC talkgroup. May also patch CDF commands.
Link into DHS & DOI etc
Red Cross could join along with Cap & National Guard.

The need is too great not move agencies over. They are building out quickly! Wildfires, quakes & unrest. Lots have changed since the initial planning.

Don't forget DHS grants help pay for this.

 

[mmckenna]

There are mutual aid talkgroups that qualifying agencies can access for free. Free as in no monthly charge for system access.

Each region has a bank of Law, Fire, Medical, Emergency Management and Mutual Aid talk groups.

Any qualifying agency can apply/pay for a talk group on the system. That also comes with a charge per radio for that level access.

Likely we'll see this eventually replace some of the VHF based systems, but the way things work they tend to stick around for a long time. I'm thinking we'll also see intersystem connections to create some level of 'system of systems', but that's a big step. Listeners are already hearing talk groups linked to CHP channels. Some other agencies have got on the system, also.

It is being built out quickly. They got the funding and have moved fast.

 

[Ravenfalls]

Big incidents can use a mutual aid talkgroup, allowing any dispatch center to hear the incident clearly.

CHP can patch Blue & hear pursuits or incidents Statewide.

Everyone will want a part of the system even if only used for the occasional mutual aid.

They could add VHF towers in very rural areas which DHS may want for themselves. That would benefit Fish & Game, giving them option to switch? State Parks could also switch?

 

[mmckenna]

They could add VHF towers in very rural areas which DHS may want for themselves. That would benefit Fish & Game, giving them option to switch? State Parks could also switch?

They could, but getting enough clear VHF channels to run VHF trunking would take some work. Would be a nice solution.
State Parks is already on 7/800MHz, so it may be very easy for them to switch, but due to the coverage of CRIS and the needs of State Parks, they'll still need the small 7/800 single channel systems they have now.

From what I've seen, the system absolutely has the possibility for going that direction, but none of the documents I've had my hands on suggest that this is the direction they are going at this time. Even with TDMA, having enough paths available would limit the size of the system. I think what you'd be more likely to see is the ISSI links between existing P25 trunked systems put into play to share resources, but that's going to take a lot of coordination between agencies that are not always known for playing well together.

Even with some VHF overlay, getting statewide coverage will not happen. Even CHP has coverage deficiencies with low band.
System design has been about covering major highways and population areas. Focus has been about hitting higher percentage of the human population rather than land area.
But it will absolutely be interesting to see where this system goes as it continues to develop. It's got a lot of possibilities, that's for sure.

 

[es93546]

I would like to hear div3405's take on this.

 

[djpaulino]

They could, but getting enough clear VHF channels to run VHF trunking would take some work. Would be a nice solution.
State Parks is already on 7/800MHz, so it may be very easy for them to switch, but due to the coverage of CRIS and the needs of State Parks, they'll still need the small 7/800 single channel systems they have now.

From what I've seen, the system absolutely has the possibility for going that direction, but none of the documents I've had my hands on suggest that this is the direction they are going at this time. Even with TDMA, having enough paths available would limit the size of the system. I think what you'd be more likely to see is the ISSI links between existing P25 trunked systems put into play to share resources, but that's going to take a lot of coordination between agencies that are not always known for playing well together.

Even with some VHF overlay, getting statewide coverage will not happen. Even CHP has coverage deficiencies with low band.
System design has been about covering major highways and population areas. Focus has been about hitting higher percentage of the human population rather than land area.
But it will absolutely be interesting to see where this system goes as it continues to develop. It's got a lot of possibilities, that's for sure.

So for years they have had interop systems like CLEMARS, CLERS, OES Fire Net that are rarely utilized, what makes you think CRIS will be utilized?

 

[mmckenna]

So for years they have had interop systems like CLEMARS, CLERS, OES Fire Net that are rarely utilized, what makes you think CRIS will be utilized?

Absolutely nothing.

I know we use CLEMARS for talking between dispatch centers, but it's not frequent. And one of the benefits of it is that it's simplex. I'm confident CLEMARS will stay as is.

"Interoperability" is a very common industry buzzword that's frequently used to justify all kinds of purchases that rarely get used as intended. No telling if this will be one of them or not.

 

[gmclam]

So for years they have had interop systems like CLEMARS, CLERS, OES Fire Net that are rarely utilized, what makes you think CRIS will be utilized?

While those channels are used infrequently, they ARE used. You do need to give them scan time to hear stuff (don't expect to have them in your 1000+ channel scan list and not miss stuff).

Any examples of how bad your comparison is would not do this justice. What you've listed is a bunch of largely analog VHF frequencies that have distinct purposes, with (limited) range. The new system will provide a means for people to talk from one end of the state to the other, and even within different agencies. Also being digital enables tons of other capabilities which can't be done on plain old analog.

 

[ScannerDude244]

Absolutely nothing.

I know we use CLEMARS for talking between dispatch centers, but it's not frequent. And one of the benefits of it is that it's simplex. I'm confident CLEMARS will stay as is.

"Interoperability" is a very common industry buzzword that's frequently used to justify all kinds of purchases that rarely get used as intended. No telling if this will be one of them or not.

I know Monterey county Fire Comm, Santa Cruz NetComm and Calfire BEU and CZU use vfire 21 everyday for new incidents. I wonder once the system gets more up this way they will switch over to a TG.

 

[mmckenna]

I know Monterey county Fire Comm, Santa Cruz NetComm and Calfire BEU and CZU use vfire 21 everyday for new incidents. I wonder once the system gets more up this way they will switch over to a TG.

We have VFire21 in our dispatch also.

Unlikely it'll move to the CRIS system. The VFire/VTac/VMed/VLaw are nationwide interoperability channels. The beauty of them is that they are VHF analog, which means most fire agencies can use them for interoperability. VFire21 is also simplex, so no infrastructure required. One of the main reasons to have those frequencies set aside is that all agencies can use them and don't need to be part of anyone elses system.

 

[ScannerDude244]

I know vfire21 won't go away, but I meant a incident TG between dispatch centers at the local region.

 

[mmckenna]

I know vfire21 won't go away, but I meant a incident TG between dispatch centers at the local region.

Good question.
I'd be surprised. That's a lot of work to make happen. Would need a radio dedicated to that, or a link between the dispatch console and radio system. Getting a dispatch center to add a new radio can be expensive, and unless someone is standing there with a sack of money, there will be pushback.
It would make some level of sense, but that's rarely been a good enough driver in the past.

Ideally the established CRIS regional mutual aid talk groups could be utilized for that. But there's a lot of value in a simple VHF system.

I'm sure we'll see CRIS grow into something much different than what it is now as it gets adopted. Seems like the state is trying to encourage wide area adoption of the service by having the "free" mutual aid talk groups. But radios that will support 700MHz P25 trunking are not cheap. For agencies that are firmly entrenched with conventional radio systems, especially on VHF or UHF, getting them to buy a bunch of new radios will be difficult. Cross patching is an option, so are interoperability packages that allow them to do it on a scene.

 

[es93546]

So for years they have had interop systems like CLEMARS, CLERS, OES Fire Net that are rarely utilized, what makes you think CRIS will be utilized?

Where I live the agencies and their dispatch centers are all linked via the state's microwave. It used to be linked with 450+ MHz frequencies, but is now all on the state's system. It is known as "the hotline." Even Cal Fire's San Bernardino ECC has access to it. We don't have CLERS in Inyo and Mono, but there is a need for direct, intercom type communications between dispatch centers. I think that the use of CLERS is low because it is not private. Mono County also has a link to Alpine Co (which is dispatched by Douglas County, NV) so there is a Douglas County to Mono County link. It is on 450+ MHz.

CLEMARS is used as a tactical frequency by the SO's and the PD's. It is also used for interagency contact when units are in simplex range. Different agencies communicate on all the law enforcement and fire nets. Both counties have a mutual aid repeater system on the same frequencies that has widespread coverage. There are two frequency pairs at most of the repeater sites. The mobile of the other repeater site is used as a tactical.

CALCORD is used when non law enforcement personnel respond to incident scenes such as when the road departments, non LE USFS personnel and county health might be players. We see it used during floods, avalanches and the hasty stage of SAR's.

The eastern Sierra counties already have their "CRIS" system and don't need trunking and a computer controlled cross band system provided by the state.

The only exception to this is individual vehicles and heavy equipment of Caltrans don't have any communications with much of anyone else. The station superintendents have CHP radios and the CHP can communicate with each Caltrans vehicle. State parks, at least the park rangers, have a VHF High mobile in their vehicles. I don't think their handhelds/extenders have anything but 700/800 in them or access to other bands. . State Fish and Wildlife warden's hand held extenders are tied into a VHF-High mobile radio so they have handheld access to all the mutual aid type and other agency frequencies on that band on their handhelds.

Perhaps rural areas are more accustomed to working interagency on a frequent basis given no one has a lot of personnel/equipment. During large events we can see law enforcement officers from 7-8 agencies working together*. However, rural areas don't really need CRIS. VHF-High works better in mountainous terrain. We've already worked out most interoperability needs.

*U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service (more often in southern Inyo Co.), State Fish and Wildlife, State Parks (more often in Mono County), CHP, Mono County SO, Inyo County SO, Mammoth Lakes PD and Bishop PD.

 

[mmckenna]

Where I live the agencies and their dispatch centers are all linked via the state's microwave. It used to be linked with 450+ MHz frequencies, but is now all on the state's system. It is known as "the hotline."

We have wireline hotlines between centers, plus CLEMARS, works well.

The station superintendents have CHP radios and the CHP can communicate with each Caltrans vehicle. State parks, at least the park rangers, have a VHF High mobile in their vehicles. I don't think their handhelds have anything but 700/800 in them.

CHP has Low band, VHF High, UHF and 7/800MHz in their cars, so they can pretty much talk to anyone. Much more favorable to not have CalTrans coming up on CHP frequencies, better to have CHP get on CalTrans frequencies when needed. Keeps the law stuff on the law side. Eventually when CHP goes encrypted, they wouldn't want anyone else on there anyway.

 

[es93546]

CHP has Low band, VHF High, UHF and 7/800MHz in their cars, so they can pretty much talk to anyone. Much more favorable to not have CalTrans coming up on CHP frequencies, better to have CHP get on CalTrans frequencies when needed. Keeps the law stuff on the law side. Eventually when CHP goes encrypted, they wouldn't want anyone else on there anyway.

When highways have to be closed or chain restriction check stations/roadblocks need to be placed Caltrans supervisor's will sometimes get on the CHP frequencies to coordinate directly. The hotline sometimes results in delays and information relay errors (the old game of "telephone"). The Caltrans supervisors are pretty good radio operators used to being concise and quick.

 

[ccsochp11]

This is coming from a local Motorola buddy. Chp valley division will be on the Cris system, the lowband repeaters will be sent else where because of no company at the moment making low band repeaters.

 

[KK6ZTE]

This is coming from a local Motorola buddy. Chp valley division will be on the Cris system, the lowband repeaters will be sent else where because of no company at the moment making low band repeaters.

That is false. There are lowband repeaters and base stations being made. Comtronix is making them.

The people that *actually* know things on this system aren't posting details. Everyone here, including the retired personnel, are just speculating.

 

[kg6nlw]

This is coming from a local Motorola buddy. Chp valley division will be on the Cris system, the lowband repeaters will be sent else where because of no company at the moment making low band repeaters.

Okay yeah sure...That's why I can order up a low band machine and have it fully spec'd out if I wanted...

As @KK6ZTE said, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Just because VAL GOLD is being rebroadcast doesn't mean anything significant.

Regards,

-Frank C.

 

[KG7PBS]

Okay yeah sure...That's why I can order up a low band machine and have it fully spec'd out if I wanted...

As @KK6ZTE said, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Just because VAL GOLD is being rebroadcast doesn't mean anything significant.

Regards,

-Frank C.

Jesus dude you really need a snickers bar

 

[inigo88]

Just to add to the drama, doesn’t CHP use console patches to repeat the mobile traffic on their remote base stations? Keep in mind that most CHP areas (especially the large ones) have multiple remote bases, using receiver voting on the mobile frequency to allow dispatch to reply on the closest transmitter. Lowband simulcast is HARD, therefore the “repeat” function is usually turned on only on one remote base that is centrally located in the coverage area (the reason you may hear scratchy mobile repeat but clear dispatcher in some cases). So isn’t this whole discussion of availability of lowband repeaters kind of a moot point?

As for CHP Valley division joining CRIS, it’s certainly possible. The CHP El Cajon office has been on a talkgroup on the San Diego RCS for many years while all surrounding Border division offices remained on lowband, so there’s precedent for it happening. And Valley division would be a fairly easy CRIS “launch customer” since there is no difficult mountainous terrain to provide coverage in. EDIT: Ok except for the Sierras haha. I should correct that to be the offices local to Sacramento/Stockton which are entirely in the Central Valley and don’t cover the mountains, such as Valley Gold3 and Black3.