Cleveland National Forest New Forest Net

[es93546]

Thanks for the clarification! What I would also love to have is a map showing the numeric districts CNF is divided into. Many years back I was able to copy what ANF was divided into on a paper map I still have. As far as I know those ANF district numbers are obsolete. Partial section attached.

View attachment 162909

I have noticed the lat/long coordinates on Wildcad so at least I have a rough idea of the patrol areas vs unit numbers in CNF.

The name of these areas of land is not districts, so as not to confuse them with Ranger Districts, these are response areas. The first digit, however, does reflect the ranger districts of the forest. Not all response areas have a fire station, but more than half, maybe 3/4 do have a station and an engine assigned to it. That is true of the southern California forests, but not so much in the rest of the country. I don't have a response area map for the Cleveland and don't have any connections I can use to come up with one.

One more thing, the engine number reflects the response area number. For example, in the above Angeles NF map you provided a view of, The Texas Canyon station will house Engine 331, that is a Type 3 engine stationed in response area 31.

 

[Teotwaki]

The name of these areas of land is not districts, so as not to confuse them with Ranger Districts, these are response areas. The first digit, however, does reflect the ranger districts of the forest. Not all response areas have a fire station, but more than half, maybe 3/4 do have a station and an engine assigned to it. That is true of the southern California forests, but not so much in the rest of the country. I don't have a response area map for the Cleveland and don't have any connections I can use to come up with one.

One more thing, the engine number reflects the response area number. For example, in the above Angeles NF map you provided a view of, The Texas Canyon station will house Engine 331, that is a Type 3 engine stationed in response area 31.

Thank you very much for the facts and insights! I'll have to start a list of engines and locations of stations and tie that to some of the lat/longs in wildcad for mapping out. That will suggest some probable response areas and perhaps lead to the outlines of the ranger districts too.

 

[ecps92]

Thank you very much for the facts and insights! I'll have to start a list of engines and locations of stations and tie that to some of the lat/longs in wildcad for mapping out. That will suggest some probable response areas and perhaps lead to the outlines of the ranger districts too.

Try this in Google Earth

https://apps.fs.usda.gov/arcx/rest/services/EDW/EDW_RangerDistricts_01/MapServer/kml/mapImage.kmz

Zoom in and it shows the Ranger Districts

 

[Teotwaki]

Try this in Google Earth

https://apps.fs.usda.gov/arcx/rest/services/EDW/EDW_RangerDistricts_01/MapServer/kml/mapImage.kmz

Zoom in and it shows the Ranger Districts

Thanks for the map!

I'll have to pay attention to the morning line up broadcast and see how the engine numbers and response areas line up with the RD's on the map. WildCad doesn't seem to list the CNF resources at the moment.

BTW. In WildCAD-E CASDIC I just noticed this from May 8th: "2024 AE COM DRONE FLIGHTS"

 

[Teotwaki]

Adding Lookout 86 & 87 at Boucher Hill

320R
Brush 288
Comms 22, 26, 27, 28, 29
2Charles1 (Patrol Captain)
2Edward 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12
Engineer 325
2King 1 & 5 (canine units)
Lookout 03, 41, 50, 51 57, 62 (Palomar), 86 & 87 (KCB591 Boucher Hill)
Patrol 21, 22, 23, 33, 34, 41, 42
Prevention 24
Ranger 2
Rec 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 31
Trails 21, 25
2Tom 2 (LEO Trainee)
Utility 36


Neat lookout tower web site: FFLA-SDRC

 

[Teotwaki]

Comms 27 is out and about in CNF. A good time to monitor for changes to the repeaters.

 

[Teotwaki]

Common 2 freq 163.100 MHz - - Helicopter 534 operating (I assume) in Cleveland as I can hear the ground comms too. Picking up "loads" and dropping off MREs and Gatorade bottles.

Note that H534 operates from Heaps Peak in SBNF

 

[es93546]

Common 2 freq 163.100 MHz - - Helicopter 534 operating (I assume) in Cleveland as I can hear the ground comms too. Picking up "loads" and dropping off MREs and Gatorade bottles.

Note that H534 operates from Heaps Peak in SBNF

163.1000 is used by wildland fire agencies as a "deck" frequency when managing helispots and helibases. It is not an exclusive use frequency, it is used federal government wide. There were two VHF federal high band frequencies listed as federal government wide itinerant frequencies until narrow banding started in 2004 when 4 additional government wide itinerant frequencies were added, now a total of 6 of them. The natural resources agencies in California do not allow 168.3500 to be used for anything but as aircraft deck related, however, in the interior western U.S. many USFS regions or GACC's authorize its use as "travel."

 

[es93546]

Thanks for the map!

I'll have to pay attention to the morning line up broadcast and see how the engine numbers and response areas line up with the RD's on the map. WildCad doesn't seem to list the CNF resources at the moment.

BTW. In WildCAD-E CASDIC I just noticed this from May 8th: "2024 AE COM DRONE FLIGHTS"

Ranger District boundaries are shown on all National Forest Visitor Maps. You have to lay out around $10 per forest (sometimes $12), but you get a map with a 1/2" per mile scale map, with station locations, plus all the other features like campgrounds, picnic areas, the numbers on roads, etc. The Cleveland is fairly simple with Trabuco being all self contained, a line between Palomar and Descanso, with the remainder of the Descanso R.D. being the large portion of the forest south of I-8. It also shows the public land survey, which allows a person to hear "Township 16 South, Range 2 West, Northwest Quarter, Section 10" and locate it on the map. I copy down that and the lat/long when I hear a dispatch, then I find it on the Visitor Map, then do a search for the lat/long on Google Earth so I have some idea of where an incident is located. The initial dispatch lat/long will often be somewhere remotely close to the incident's location. The arriving IC will then, as part of the sizeup, give a better lat/long.

 

[Teotwaki]

Do the national forests have a means to route audio traffic from one forest repeater to an out of state USFS repeater?

I have a radio that scans through CNF frequencies and heard Patrol 24 tell dispatch he was in the Pike National Forest, Colorado. Maybe I heard him wrong and he was just sharing he was an asset from Colorado?

Recently I met a guy working in the Inyo National Forest and he told me he was on loan from Virginia so I do know about out of state folks assisting here in California..

 

[Teotwaki]

Do the national forests have a means to route audio traffic from one forest repeater to an out of state USFS repeater?

I have a radio that scans through CNF frequencies and heard Patrol 24 tell dispatch he was in the Pike National Forest, Colorado. Maybe I heard him wrong and he was just sharing he was an asset from Colorado?

Recently I met a guy working in the Inyo National Forest and he told me he was on loan from Virginia so I do know about out of state folks assisting here in California..

Annnnddddd....., I did just hear Colorado Engine 82 (?) telling Cleveland they were back at Oak Grove. Will have to just keep listening to see if Patrol 24 speaks up again.

 

[prcguy]

Annnnddddd....., I did just hear Colorado Engine 82 (?) telling Cleveland they were back at Oak Grove. Will have to just keep listening to see if Patrol 24 speaks up again.

What freq was that on?

 

[ladn]

Annnnddddd....., I did just hear Colorado Engine 82 (?) telling Cleveland they were back at Oak Grove.

I hear out of area recourses talking on the ANF (Angeles NF) system occasionally, either on ANF ADMIN or ANF FOREST NET. Radio traffic would indicate they were filling in at one of the stations.

 

[es93546]

Do the national forests have a means to route audio traffic from one forest repeater to an out of state USFS repeater?

I have a radio that scans through CNF frequencies and heard Patrol 24 tell dispatch he was in the Pike National Forest, Colorado. Maybe I heard him wrong and he was just sharing he was an asset from Colorado?

Recently I met a guy working in the Inyo National Forest and he told me he was on loan from Virginia so I do know about out of state folks assisting here in California..

The answer to your first question is no. I'm not aware of any forest having the ability, or maybe even the need, to link a repeater on one forest with another repeater on another forest. They have enough challenge and lack of budget, to keep the repeaters on one forest linked to dispatch and ranger and fire stations. Electronics has operated on a shoestring for lots of years. It's one of those issues that stays in the back of many manager's minds until one day when they really need a radio and repeater to work for them to give much thought to the issue.

 

[Teotwaki]

What freq was that on?

Was probably Forest Net. It's in the personality I gave you for your XG-100M

 

[es93546]

EDIT* This might be a little too much information, reading optional.

You say you heard Patrol 24 tell dispatch "he was 'in' the Pike National Forest." This would be out of character or accepted agency lingo to say he was "in" a National Forest. The lingo is to be "ON' the Pike National Forest. More likely someone would have said "I'm on the Pike" or "I'm off the Pike" when explaining to another person where he/she is from.

I'm a tiny bit surprised that another Forest Service Region (the Rocky Mountain Region in this case) has adopted the resource name convention instead of a totally numeric ID, e.g. Patrol 21, Engine 432, Water Tender 242, etc. When I started in Region 3 (AZ, NM) in the 1970's Engine 432 would have just been 232 with the two being the ranger district, all threes being fire personnel and apparatus and the two being the second engine on the district. So the FMO would not be "Division 3", rather that person would be "2-3." Recreation people would be 2-5 and then 251, 252, etc. I think that fire has accommodated naming the type of resource, i.e. Engine, Patrol, Crew, Water Tender, Division, Battalion and Chief, but the other functions hold on to their, its always been this way, "2-5," "251," etc. Region 5 directs that all other functions use function names rather that just numbers. For example, from the district I retired from, which was district #2, the Recreation Officer was "Rec 2" and I was the frontcountry supervisor so I was "Rec 21" and my permanent seasonals were "Rec 22 and "Rec 23." Some of our seasonals were then "Rec 24" - "Rec 29."

It would be good if all regions followed this convention to have one standard, but theoretically I can hear the yells if that happened. "We definitely don't want that: IT'S FROM CALIFORNIA." The problem with the numerical identifiers is that they weren't standardized, 5 on one forest would be recreation and recreation would be 6 or 4 on another forest. This makes it hard to work on another forest if you don't have the forest's identifier sheet right in front of you. "GIVE IT A NAME, for God's sake!"

You don't need to read the "EDIT," I'm just reminiscing in writing.

 

[Teotwaki]

es93546​

Yes, it is quite verbose but it is welcome information

 

[es93546]

es93546​

Yes, it is quite verbose but it is welcome information

The sky is opening up here in the eastern Sierra so a good time to be on the computer. If you ever need more background of USFS practices, lingo or culture just ask. Sometimes I have time and other times I don't!

 

[es93546]

Thank you very much for the facts and insights! I'll have to start a list of engines and locations of stations and tie that to some of the lat/longs in wildcad for mapping out. That will suggest some probable response areas and perhaps lead to the outlines of the ranger districts too.

I used to have a good source on the Cleveland, but like me, he retired.

 

[es93546]

One other identifier system is in use in the Pacific Northwest Area (I think in other areas as well, like the Northern Rockies and Rocky Mountain Areas) and that is to use last names for all personnel. I've been listening to the Umpqua and Willamette National Forests on a Broadcastify feed for the last two days. They use an apparatus ID system, but all people, no matter what position, use their last names. I once arrived on a forest that I had just transferred to and they told me to use my last name. It's a crappy system when you get on another agency's frequency to run a plate, etc. They have no idea who you are when you do so. In addition I didn't want everyone to know who I was, so I made up an identifier based on a previous, but currently unused number system. About a year later a directive came down with a new number identifier system. I've hear fires where other agencies keep hearing "Jones" on a fire and that doesn't help. It helps when I know "Jones" is a division supervisor, i.e. District Fire Management Officer.