Could the FCC "sunset" all American amateur radio?

[jwt873]

Why so bitter?

There's no way of knowing whether or not the chosen username on RR is actually the callsign of the person. But, if so, this might explain it:

EB Imposes $18,000 fine against amateur radio licensee

EB imposes an $18,000 monetary forfeiture against Jerry Materne for causing interference and failing to provide station identification on amateur radio frequencies

www.fcc.gov

 

[KG7PBS]

I think you are dating yourself with some of these beliefs.

Most major municipalities/counties/states now have redundant communications systems that have backup generator power in multiple locations, communications trailers (COWs) and satellite capabilities. Most minor municipalities don't even have an EOC. I have never seen an amateur operator at our EOC and can attest to the fact that even when they are present at events, such as the Boston Marathon, their interaction with public safety for communications purposes is almost non-existent.

That said, I do carry a HT with me on Marathon Monday just in case, but I am the anomaly. In the past, your statements were true, but as time has moved forward, the amateur operator has been far outpaced by technology and, as a result, is becoming more and more irrelevant as a tool for assisting public safety.

Why is it when ARES guys talk about how we can help in Emergency’s you people at the Government level of communications. Have to take it as such a pissing contest. OMG just because you paid millions for your awesome P-25 system with all its back up redundancy systems and COW’s. Doesn’t mean there no place for ARES at the Table. Look we help with non public safety communications. You know hey we need food water and blankets at the evacuation center. We need more evacuation centers opened up. Come down Little John. Our ARES boys with there 35$ dollar BowFong radio won’t take away your gory of saving the day.

 

[Cavscout]

Yawn.

 

[kb9mwr]

The real question is what would American Amateur's do to fight back? Now that is a topic worth discussing if you ask me.

When the goverment better represents their corporate and special interest donors than Mr. John Q Public, we have a problem.

As for the origional question, I would assume something that grand would end up in court and it would boil down to are we fullfilling the basis and purposes spelled out in Part 97? That is our justification for access to the spectrum.

 

[n5ims]

Could the FCC sunset all American amateur radio? Sure but there are serious issues that they'll have to overcome to do so if the spectrum is going to be reused for other purposes. How about the flip side of that coin, could the FCC sunset all American OTA broadcast TV and allow that spectrum to be used by others (including hams)? Sure for that as well. Chances are that fewer folks will be impacted by that change since most folks get their TV signals via cable, satellite, or streaming now days anyway. Would the TV stations complain? Of course but with enough incentive they'll be happy to give up their transmitters (remember that WNBC-TV in New York gave up their broadcast channel as part of the switch to ATSC 3.0 that's happening as we speak - err type). Are they going off the air? No but they're using a sub channel of their sister station in New York WNJU. NBC Sells Spectrum of WNBC, WSNS, WWSI | Broadcasting+Cable (nexttv.com)

 

[Osprey1163]

Is there any reason that the FCC would not sunset all amateur radio and just sell it off to the highest bidder or just declare it a threat to "national security" to make it illegal?

No. Hope that helps.

 

[N4GIX]

The major reason against any "sunsetting" ham frequency is the ITU. FCC has no authority to re-allocate frequencies that are governed by international compact. The only exception would be as happened in WWI and WWII where the government used the excuse of "national emergency" to shut down amateur operations for the duration.

 

[k6cpo]

I doubt the FCC would have the resolve to "sunset" all the amateur radio frequencies in the US. The the January 6 attack on the US Capitol would pale in comparison to the reaction of 750,000 amateur radio operators if their hobby was abruptly terminated.

 

[kinglou0]

…..the reaction of 750,000 amateur radio operators if their hobby was abruptly terminated.

750,000? Not even close. Those numbers are so inflated/padded with dead and inactive amateurs that I would estimate the true number to be closer to 350,000.

Starting there, I’d say big whoop. No one in the government cares if a predominantly older crowd of guys gets to play with their radios.

You only have to look at the US government’s playbook on firearms. Rulings and regulations aimed at a constitutionally protected right, that can make felons out of millions of legal gun owners.

Access to radio spectrum is not constitutionally protected and frankly even with a change in political leadership, no one in the US government cares about the ITU. If the FCC wants to and the right people in Congress support it, amateur allocations would disappear.

Paint amateur radio as the last bastion of “insert the appropriate -ism or other unpopular societal opinion” and the public uproar would be more than enough to get enough members of Congress to act.

 

[GlobalNorth]

What international organization would overturn a potential FCC ban of amateur radio operations? The ITU? The UN? The International Criminal Court?

 

[Token]

What international organization would overturn a potential FCC ban of amateur radio operations? The ITU? The UN? The International Criminal Court?

The US government absolutely could (although I can't for the life of me see why they would) ban all ham activity in the US and cancel all existing ham licenses held under US authority.

However, the frequencies assigned to the ham service are generally done so under international agreements. Even if all ham activity in the US were halted that would not stop the rest of the world. And the majority of those frequencies could not realistically be reassigned in the US to other services. Ham frequencies are coordinated so as to minimize interference between ham radio and other services. What are you going to do, put US maritime services in the middle of the world wide 20 meter band? So, for example, if the US 2 meter band were taken from and reassigned (in the US only) to public service, the potential for those "new" public service transmissions to interfere with other countries ham satellites, and those satellites to interfere with that public service, becomes very real. There are some pretty good reasons for international coordination of spectrum.

I do not believe the US is under any international obligation to allow ham radio, but it is, as a signer of various treaties, under an obligation to attempt to follow certain ITU frequency allocations. Removing ham radio just means that certain pieces of spectrum will be even less used in the US than it already is.

T!

 

[bill4long]

If the FCC wants to and the right people in Congress support it, amateur allocations would disappear.

Well, they could try. A lot of hams would ignore them, just like CBers do on 11 meters when they run 1000s of watts. And a lot whould jam the crap out of anyone who dared to use former ham frequencies. Just sayin'. At any rate, the possibility of this happening is right at about zero.

Paint amateur radio as the last bastion of “insert the appropriate -ism or other unpopular societal opinion” and the public uproar would be more than enough to get enough members of Congress to act.

Most people don't know what ham radio is, and the news media barely knows what it is. And it has no sustainable clickbait-worthiness. Moreover, anyone can by a CCR and use it on all kinds of frequencies not just ham radio. Many people do it every day, all over the country. The FCC is powerless to stop most of it. What if they tried to ban ham radio: what would they ban next? GMRS? MURS? FRS? CB? Land Mobile? Cell phones? Megaphones? Smoke signals? Carrier pidgeons?

FCC kyboshing ham radio? Bwahahaha! The idea solves no problem, and wouldn't make a difference anyway. The very idea is idiotic. You may as well try to ban guns or marijuana first. Bwahahaha.

 

[Token]

750,000? Not even close. Those numbers are so inflated/padded with dead and inactive amateurs that I would estimate the true number to be closer to 350,000.

Starting there, I’d say big whoop. No one in the government cares if a predominantly older crowd of guys gets to play with their radios.

<<<snip>>>

Paint amateur radio as the last bastion of “insert the appropriate -ism or other unpopular societal opinion” and the public uproar would be more than enough to get enough members of Congress to act.

But you can't have it both ways. Either ham radio is such a small set of the population that it is unimportant, or it is a large enough set of malcontents to burn the political capital to fight the fight to close it down. As easy as it might be I don't suspect anyone wants to burn that capital, there are bigger fights to fight and fish to fry.

For as long as I can remember (and I was first licensed in the 1960's) ham radio has had as many inactive or dead hams as active ones. It has always been an older mans game. It has always been a middle class, predominately white, male, aging adult with the free time and disposable income to participate, hobby. But, while still the majority, that is less true today than at any time I remember.

When I went to my first (as a licensed ham) ham meeting in 1967 I, and 2 other new Novices, were the only persons present under the age of about 35. Everyone in that meeting was male, white, and most were nearing or past retirement. And one of the more talked about orders of business that evening was helping a family of an SK dispose of the gear left behind. When I go to ham club meetings today I see a more diverse group then I have ever seen in the past 50+ years as a ham. More young kids, more minorities, more females, and a more mixed group of socioeconomic representatives. Note that I am not claiming that ham radio is "flourishing", but it is definitely more inclusive today.

T!

 

[trentbob]

One thing is for sure, the government will made ham radio profitable now, even though it's not going to happen anytime soon, they ARE going to charge a nice chunk of change to take exams and get vanity call signs.

Whatever income they get from that, it's more than they got before and they're not going to get rid of a money-making proposition.

 

[mmckenna]

No one is going to take away all the ham bands.

Ham radio operators trying to convince the world that they are super important and that the spectrum is critical to the operation of the country is just blowing smoke. You can thank the friggin' ARRL for stirring this up every few years...

Truth is, the HF spectrum has little value.
6 meters is of little value, a lot of the VHF low band is sitting unused.
Having some more VHF spectrum would be nice, but 4MHz and the issue with other countries isn't going to result in much.
222MHz was a hot topic for a while, but not so much any more.
70cm is secondary users to the military. Military is not going to give it up.
33cm is secondary to ISM.

 

[kinglou0]

But you can't have it both ways. Either ham radio is such a small set of the population that it is unimportant, or it is a large enough set of malcontents to burn the political capital to fight the fight to close it down.

Normally, you’d be right. It’s either/or, not both but in today’s changing society, both conditions can exist and still have plenty of “meat” for politicians to call for action.

We only need to look at the January 6th “insurrection” to see what a small group of people can do to public opinion. There are insurrectionists, supremacists, and other “ists” by the 10’s of millions if the media and popular opinion is to be believed.

Have Vice, Vox, or any of the other reactionary websites listen to some of our troublemakers on the amateur bands. We’ll be up poop creek before you know it.

 

[StaticDischarge]

Whatever income they get from that, it's more than they got before and they're not going to get rid of a money-making proposition.

trentbob, you, my friend, are so close to the answers it is not funny...

and

Have Vice, Vox, or any of the other reactionary websites listen to some of our troublemakers on the amateur bands. We’ll be up poop creek before you know it.

I cannot stress this enough...

Loosing our operating privileges just isn't a real cause for concern at the moment... There are other things, bigger things, coming our way that it won't matter if you are an operator, "ists", "LGBTQ" or whatever it is you claim to be, you are not going to like what it is and it is not going to be pretty... Simple thing really if your eyes are wide open and can see it... Divide and conquer... And that is what is happening right now if you believe it or not... History man, history... didn't you study it??? Can't you put 2 and 2 together and come to a conclusion that if we, as a nation, cannot stand together UNITED we will fall!!! I don't know about you but as I look around me, it is all I see right now is us falling completely apart... They are conquering... Not only that but they managed to put a man, who you can plainly see, in the oval office who should really be retiring in an assisted living arrangement instead... And nobody has yet been able to put a stop to it... Now ask yourself why? Because we are too divided...
Just sayin'...

 

[danesgs]

Actually, the 220-222 MHz segment is now being used by the railroads for their federally-mandated Positive Train Control systems. The consortiums that designed the PTC hardware have already complained to the FCC that they might need more spectrum. So, it's conceivable that the FCC could come after the 222-225 MHz slice where amateur radio is currently primary.

They more than likely will unless they see more HAMs using that spectrum. There has been a resurgence of radio makers (mostly China) that are making Triband HT's and mobiles. Unless the FCC hears from us both through the ARRL and on the air, it will get lost again like it did to UPS.

 

[Duckford]

In all of these discussions, I think the one aspect everyone forgets is the fact that Ham frequencies are basically "idle" frequencies, or "deactivated" frequencies for government/official use, in a broad sense. Like a mothballed battleship that can be brought back into service if the Navy says "hey, we're taking that back" and then do. You aren't driving the old beater truck in the family, so you give the keys to your kid and tell him "when we have to haul in trash to the landfill, I get those keys back".

During crisis or emergency, the Amateur bands can be quickly restricted and controlled. Controls and priorities can be set, Hams can be kicked off temporarily and told to come back afterwards. If anyone, from civilian Hams volunteering to help during a crisis, to the government itself using the Ham bands, the fact that it is Amateur and allotted the way it is means it is clear for emergency use at any time.

To put it better, the reason that Ham frequencies are safe HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH THE IMPORTANCE OF AMATEUR RADIO ITSELF PER SE and everything to do with the concept that WE AREN'T BEING SO MUCH ALLOCATED FREQUENCIES, BUT RATHER WE ARE ALLOWED TO PLAY ON THE FREQUENCIES THAT ARE CLEAR AND ARE LET TO SIT IDLE ON PURPOSE.

If you want to have an open field in an area left to be just an open field, so you can use it for a staging area during an emergency let's say, you will allow kids to rough house, play soccer, make makeshift baseball diamonds and play on it. That's OK, all of that does not hurt the open field. But what you don't want are a bunch of buildings and infrastructure built on the field, lest it must be razed, or moved, or worked around.

Ham radio is, in some ways, and not to disrespect the service at all, the kids playing in the staging area field. The industrial/commercial entities who want to buy allocations are basically trying to build buildings and infrastructure on the parcel, and this is not good. So the kids will always be allowed to play soccer there, and nobody will ever get the lease/purchase to build a warehouse. In a very rough analogy.

HF has too much interference for interest, and too little bandwith. Beyond that, some will be lost due to the modern "wireless" trend of everything. But even then, the government would rather keep plenty of bandwith "idle" then to sell it all off.

 

[jwt873]

I kind of wish that a bit of history as well as how the RF spectrum is governed would be included in the amateur exams.

The amateur radio hobby is over a century old and has contributed greatly to the field of radio communications.

History wise... In the beginning when communication was done by spark gap, anyone could build and operate a station. There were absolutely no rules and no governing bodies. At this time there were commercial services, ship to shore etc. (professionals). And, there were people who used radio as a hobby, for no pay.. (amateurs).

Because of the interference to commercial interests caused by hobbyists, governing bodies were formed and the amateurs were eventually banned to frequencies that were thought of as being of little use. Hams at one time 'owned' every frequency above the AM broadcast band. Over time, many of these frequencies were taken over leaving us what we have today. Note that what we have today wasn't a simple matter of someone throwing us a bone.

Amateurs have contributed greatly to the radio service.

Here's an excerpt from an NPR website:

Read the whole thing here --> Vintage Radio: The Contributions Of "Amateurs"- Giving Radio A Voice

"After WWI, through experimentation, amateurs greatly contributed to the advance of the radio arts.

One of their contributions was the development of voice modulated radio signals, which used Amplitude Modulation (AM), where by the strength of a radio signal is varied (modulated) by an audio component.

They also contributed greatly to the study, and understanding, of how different frequencies behaved and how, at some of these frequencies, even weak signals could propagate over great distances. They soon demonstrated that those "worthless" frequencies above 1500 kHz weren't so worthless after all. By the mid 1920s, amateur operators were communicating across the Atlantic on shortwave frequencies using transmitters of 100 watts or less, while commercial companies were still pounding the lower frequencies with 200 kilowatt transmitters.

For their efforts, amateurs were granted permanent privileges for frequencies in the 80, 40, 20, and 10 meter shortwave bands by international treaty in 1927. In modern times, these privileges extend all the way to microwave frequencies. The term "ham" was originally coined by commercial operators as a derogatory term to describe amateur radio operators. It caught on and was adopted by the amateurs as a favoured nickname for those in the hobby.

You may think.. Well that was then.. Sure, many hams today get a Tech license by memorizing a few questions and then do nothing more than chat on a local repeater using a Baofeng UV5R and believe that the FCC controls ham radio globally.

Here is the international definition of amateur radio given by the International Telecommunications Union. (Who actually administer the world radio spectrum.. The FCC (and the governing bodies in other countries) abide by their regulations).

A radio communication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical
investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, by duly authorized persons interested in radio
technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.”[\i]

See --> https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/m/R-REC-M.1544-1-201509-I!!PDF-E.pdf

Note the words 'technical investigations'. There are technical investigations going on today as I write this. To name a couple, the world of digital communications has yielded a host of weak signal modes that were never even considered by professional interests. Hams are still doing research into the effects of solar phenomena and propagation modes such as Sporadic E.

So sad to see that so many amateurs have no idea of the history of their hobby, how it's actually administered and have such a negative opinion of it.