A 10 second Google search backs up @ff026 's statement about the Chaser tows. They've been around for a while now.
A dog will chase after a bone, take away the bone, the dog won't chase.
Everything NYPD encryption.
- Thread starter joerobb23
- Start date
A dog will chase after a bone, take away the bone, the dog won't chase.
Umm. I don’t know the 2 guys shot in one truck because they beat another company to the job and the monitor 2 pager on the division. I was there. I was looking in the truck for shell casing and couldn’t figure out why I kept hearing a squelch tail on radio transmissions. I look up. There is the pager.
How do I know they had a dispute over a tow job. I was at the hospital doing the report with the detective. I wrote the statement in my narrative. “Joe blow shot at me because I beat him to an accident.”
30 minute delay will not work either. Sometimes because of call volume 53’s can sit on a queue for 30-55 minutes. A unit can hold a 53 for an hour before having it reassigned or finalized.
Everyone thinks they have the answer to this problem. Truth is no one does.
I have had to call for help when some lost/stolen/CCR was causing a problem. It happened to me. This isn’t some I heard hearsay. I could not get my location over the air because someone was maliciously causing interference.
Since we are talking anecdotally, I was involved in a 53 in midtown north Manhattan a few months back. No chaser tows, no injured mos.
It’s an easy answer. Encryption has been ubiquitous for at least a decade. Take any major city or county that have encrypted all comms like Washington DC or Nassau County, NY. Easy study. Show us the data on crime rates and officer safety data for ten years prior to encryption, and ten years since. Easiest way to justify encrypting all police communications. But you won’t see the PD using this data because the numbers aren’t there. Science disproves things that seem logical everyday. A very expensive hypothesis. I’ve monitored the NYPD for forty five years (that’s a lot of 53s) and never heard a police officer or civilian getting hurt by a chaser tow (anecdotally, of course).
Show me data and I’ll listen. Anecdotes are fun though.
It’s an easy answer. Encryption has been ubiquitous for at least a decade. Take any major city or county that have encrypted all comms like Washington DC or Nassau County, NY. Easy study. Show us the data on crime rates and officer safety data for ten years prior to encryption, and ten years since. Easiest way to justify encrypting all police communications. But you won’t see the PD using this data because the numbers aren’t there. Science disproves things that seem logical everyday. A very expensive hypothesis. I’ve monitored the NYPD for forty five years (that’s a lot of 53s) and never heard a police officer or civilian getting hurt by a chaser tow (anecdotally, of course).
Show me data and I’ll listen. Anecdotes are fun though.
So my first hand accounts aren’t good enough?
Mid town doesn’t have a problem with chasers. It’s usually the Bronx and Brooklyn.
So because you’ve listened for 45 years you’re a “scientist” now. Lol
Hence, the encryption in Brooklyn and not Manhattan, lol.
Science is my profession. Monitoring is my hobby.
All respect to the NYPD. I love them and support them whenever I can. I can understand why a police officer would want encryption. Full time encryption just isn’t justified by data. Sorry.
Just for fun, could you please provide some documented evidence on "many instances" of scanner listener heroes who have saved lives merely with a scanner and antenna?
And actual data too. Not just Anecdotes.
I’m a surgeon, so I will leave it at that.
richee2000
Communications Professional
Honestly, why in the world would anyone be pro- encryption, unless they are part of the law enforcement community? Makes no sense whatsoever......Observation: I love how all the pro E guys are all feed providers
Why? Because some of us actually believe in something called operational security. There are a lot of bad actors out there in the world, and if they have easy access to real-time comms of a potentially sensitive nature, they have more opportunity to engage in nefarious acts.
I concede the point that in an open, democratic society, there is a legitimate argument to be made for the bona fide, credentialed press to have access to events in real-time, however Joe Q Public has no god-given or constitutionally enshrined right to monitor public safety comms. Somewhere along the line it seems that a lot of people have forgotten that, or are simply ignorant of it, and have something of a sense of entitlement that it's their right to listen in. It is not.
richee2000
Communications Professional
We also believe in operational security.
We are not against having sensitive communications encrypted on law enforcement tac channels.
We are not against having a reasonable delay on dispatch channels in LE communications to the public (30 minutes) to ensure on site operational security.
However, you have oversimplified this issue.
There must be a reasonable compromise between operational security and public/ press community awareness.
That is why you see the complex issues brought up by senators, City councils, the press, and community groups.
This issue will not be put to bed to simply say "sense of entitlement" and "no god given right to listen in", and " no constitutional right to listen in"
There is no "god-given right" or "constitutional right" to abortion either..... How's that going?
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Things aren't the same as they were ten years ago. Thanks to the soft DAs , criminals now feel very emboldened. Officer injuries and deaths due to emboldened criminals have skyrocketed. Especially since 2020. Google sometime the number of ambushes police have been involved with. They're at levels never seen before. And it's not just police. Fire and EMS also now have targets on their backs. The need for encryption has gone up tremendously due to it. It is oversimplified, because it really is a black and white matter.
And you mention the public and press community awareness like they are somehow congruent, which they aren't. As stated above, credentialed news operations (broadcast Radio/TV, the major newspapers) should have the ability to listen, in real time. The public is a different story. Years ago, I would've argued differently, but we're not in those times anymore, sorry to say.
Believe me, I know where you're coming from. My city went fully encrypted in February, and I'd love to know why that cruiser went down the street from me, but I also fully understand the importance of officer safety, which is more important. I've just found other things to listen to and worry about.
And you mention the public and press community awareness like they are somehow congruent, which they aren't. As stated above, credentialed news operations (broadcast Radio/TV, the major newspapers) should have the ability to listen, in real time. The public is a different story. Years ago, I would've argued differently, but we're not in those times anymore, sorry to say.
Believe me, I know where you're coming from. My city went fully encrypted in February, and I'd love to know why that cruiser went down the street from me, but I also fully understand the importance of officer safety, which is more important. I've just found other things to listen to and worry about.
richee2000
Communications Professional
All of your concerns for "officer safety" are eliminated with a 30-minute delay, or possibly even longer, for public availability of radio transmissions, And The ability to switch to a 100% encrypted tac channel.
Even if the public had a 60-minute delay, The public would still be aware of crime in their neighborhoods with complete transparency, while maintaining officer safety..... Along with the availability of 100% encrypted tac channels.
We maintain our position that there is a compromise available here that will satisfy concerns of both public safety officers as well as the public
Even if the public had a 60-minute delay, The public would still be aware of crime in their neighborhoods with complete transparency, while maintaining officer safety..... Along with the availability of 100% encrypted tac channels.
We maintain our position that there is a compromise available here that will satisfy concerns of both public safety officers as well as the public
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An emotional argument, but again not supported by data. Law enforcement line of duty deaths are down dramatically since the latter part of last century, and well before the advent of encryption (Covid notwithstanding) The data is available for all to see.
Stories of ambushes are awful, unspeakable tragedies. I have operated on shot cops and it is heartbreaking.
But there is no evidence that encryption of communications has any effect on preventing these unspeakable incidents. None.
It is a a false narrative that has no evidence supporting encryption. Encryption does come at a cost (financial, public trust and safety) that is real. You can improve operational security by putting police in Bearcats, but probably not a great idea. Increasing the divide between police and the public is not the answer.
When I see any evidence of the efficacy of encryption improving officer safety and lowering crime, I’m all in. Until then, it’s just talk.
Argue your case and you will enlighten
Prove your case and you will convert
Stories of ambushes are awful, unspeakable tragedies. I have operated on shot cops and it is heartbreaking.
But there is no evidence that encryption of communications has any effect on preventing these unspeakable incidents. None.
It is a a false narrative that has no evidence supporting encryption. Encryption does come at a cost (financial, public trust and safety) that is real. You can improve operational security by putting police in Bearcats, but probably not a great idea. Increasing the divide between police and the public is not the answer.
When I see any evidence of the efficacy of encryption improving officer safety and lowering crime, I’m all in. Until then, it’s just talk.
Argue your case and you will enlighten
Prove your case and you will convert
@ACKStatic Not just officer deaths, crime in general. Granted, there was an uptick 2020, but even that's dropped to pre-pandemic levels--and that's in spite of socioeconomic factors (i.e. inflation) known to increase crime rates. Simply put, things are going quite well. But, hey, who needs data when you have fearmongering?
Taking the officer safety argument to its natural conclusion, all firearms should be banned as well as all knives (perhaps pointy sticks too, just for good measure). Why do I have the feeling that doesn't go over as well with the "officer safety" crowd?
That's not reasonable, and neither is telling the public they aren't permitted to know what an agency they funded is doing. You can call that entitlement, but when it comes to agencies designed to strip people of rights (rightly or wrongly) we, one, should have that right, and, two, absolutely be entitled. If keeping government in check is entitlement, then I'm happy to say I'm very entitled.
Taking the officer safety argument to its natural conclusion, all firearms should be banned as well as all knives (perhaps pointy sticks too, just for good measure). Why do I have the feeling that doesn't go over as well with the "officer safety" crowd?
That's not reasonable, and neither is telling the public they aren't permitted to know what an agency they funded is doing. You can call that entitlement, but when it comes to agencies designed to strip people of rights (rightly or wrongly) we, one, should have that right, and, two, absolutely be entitled. If keeping government in check is entitlement, then I'm happy to say I'm very entitled.
