Motorola ASTRO Spectra PTT ID

[KK4LQX]

Hello All,

I know what when using HAM bands you must identify yourself every 10 minutes. Well that got me thinking about using the PTT ID feature to do this. Weather or not this meets the requirement i'm not sure. What I need to know is how to program my call sign in so that when I key up my call sign is auto transmitted and anyone who can receive it will see it. Anybody have any idea on how this works and how to set it up? Thanks in advance

 

[Ed_Seedhouse]

Hello All,
I know what when using HAM bands you must identify yourself every 10 minutes.

This is an international forum and the USA is not the world. Here in Canada it's every 30 minutes and at the start and end of a conversation. Just sayin...

 

[N4DES]

PTT ID would only give you a numerical #, and that doesn't mean much.

Now the SoftID in the later generation Motorola models could be a similiar solution that you are looking for. Other amateur digital modes, such as DStar, RTTY, and amateur TV do not require "verbal" identification every 10 minutes. But the person programming it must know how to set it up.

 

[W2NJS]

Some of the Vertex portables have the capability of transmitting your callsign in MCW whenever you hit the PTT. However, the people you contact will hate you if you enable this feature because it will drive them nuts hearing your callsign every time you transmit. Besides that, it's overkill, so I would recommend that you don't do it, even if you find a way to do so.

 

[KK4LQX]

Thank you all for your input. W2NJS, i'm not quite sure how a 5 digit call sign appearing on someones screen will drive someone nuts, that's IF they even have it enabled (in Moto CPS you have to enable PTT ID). could you please elaborate? Thanks again

 

[W2NJS]

I was talking about an audio signal being transmitted, but as it turns out it's a function limited to Yaesu's ARTS transponder system. To have the callsign appear on the screen of the other guy's radio you'll need one of the modern digital radios such as those from Motorola, for one. Other manufacturer's radios can probably do the same thing but my experience in limited to the Big M company. Also, I'm not certain that sending a digital readout ID complies with the rules, which as I recall specifically mention that the ID be in voice or CW form. As an example of this, if you're running RTTY you must ID in CW, and not in the form used by the teleprinter to transmit data.

 

[N4DES]

See 97.119...

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every ten minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways:


(1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;
(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;
(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;

 

[N4DES]

Thank you all for your input. W2NJS, i'm not quite sure how a 5 digit call sign appearing on someones screen will drive someone nuts, that's IF they even have it enabled (in Moto CPS you have to enable PTT ID). could you please elaborate? Thanks again

The issue is that a call sign is not 5 digits. It is mix of letters that includes one numerical digit. The PTT-ID, such as what you get on a trunking system, is 7xxxxx and not an alpha tag. All of the end user radios will need to have the unit ID's alpha tagged to a call sign to display properly, but what is transmitted is NOT the call sign. The look-up table resides in the radio and would not conform to FCC rules.

Even the use of SoftID in APCO25 would be a grey area as only Motorola radios would see the SoftID that could display a call sign. The other manufacturers radios will only see the unit's numerical ID unless those specific ID's were alpha tagged in the codeplug and the above scenario plays out.

A different example would be Amateur TV where there is no actual call-sign transmitted by voice or CW. Because the TV signal is a "set standard", all that is required could be nothing more complex than a white index card displaying the control operators call sign in front of the camera. The image of the card, by default, is part of the video stream and can be demodulated by anyone with the correct equipment and is valid for identification purposes.

 

[stevelton]

On our UHF ARES repeater, we use MDC1200, and everyone in the group has the alias table programmed in their radios. Of course this does not satisfy the FCC requierments, so every 10 minutes and at the end we still ID with voice, but if someone turns their radio on while others are in the middle of a conversation, it makes it easier to see whos on the air.
D-star is the only digital mode I know of where the radio actually sends an FCC aproved amateur call sign to other stations monitoring, and satisfies the 97.119(b3)

 

[MTS2000des]

The issue is that a call sign is not 5 digits. It is mix of letters that includes one numerical digit. The PTT-ID, such as what you get on a trunking system, is 7xxxxx and not an alpha tag. All of the end user radios will need to have the unit ID's alpha tagged to a call sign to display properly, but what is transmitted is NOT the call sign. The look-up table resides in the radio and would not conform to FCC rules.

Even the use of SoftID in APCO25 would be a grey area as only Motorola radios would see the SoftID that could display a call sign. The other manufacturers radios will only see the unit's numerical ID unless those specific ID's were alpha tagged in the codeplug and the above scenario plays out.

A different example would be Amateur TV where there is no actual call-sign transmitted by voice or CW. Because the TV signal is a "set standard", all that is required could be nothing more complex than a white index card displaying the control operators call sign in front of the camera. The image of the card, by default, is part of the video stream and can be demodulated by anyone with the correct equipment and is valid for identification purposes.

I'm curious if NXDN radio alias would count as a legal ID. NXDN sends actual caller ID alias over the air. For example, my NX210 portable is programmed as a CONVENTIONAL radio scanning a local NXDN public system RX only (again, these are just conventional VHF channels programmed RX only with the RAN open), and when various units key up, I actually see the alias text e.g., CAR 122, CANTON E3, etc.

So if one were to program your NXDN radio to use your callsign as alias, since it is a part of the emission, would it not be legal?

We actually have two NXDN mixed mode repeaters online in the Atlanta area and our organization is in the process of procuring one.

I've heard arguments that NXDN, TRBO, et al is a "gray area" but I don't find any such rules that specifically prohibit the operation of such modes.

 

[mrweather]

MDC1200 for the win!

 

[stevelton]

I'm curious if NXDN radio alias would count as a legal ID. NXDN sends actual caller ID alias over the air. For example, my NX210 portable is programmed as a CONVENTIONAL radio scanning a local NXDN public system RX only (again, these are just conventional VHF channels programmed RX only with the RAN open), and when various units key up, I actually see the alias text e.g., CAR 122, CANTON E3, etc.

So if one were to program your NXDN radio to use your callsign as alias, since it is a part of the emission, would it not be legal?

We actually have two NXDN mixed mode repeaters online in the Atlanta area and our organization is in the process of procuring one.

I've heard arguments that NXDN, TRBO, et al is a "gray area" but I don't find any such rules that specifically prohibit the operation of such modes.

That may only be a Kenwood thing. Icom NXDN radios only send a 5 digit number. Other radios in the system have the alias table programmed, show it receives the 5-digit number from a radio, but shows a text tag on the diyplay.

Did you program your NX210 yourself, or did you have someone priogram it for you?
The radio might have the Unit ID field with the radio nyumber already matched up to a text tag, and that is what you are seeing.

Steven

 

[N4DES]

MDC1200 for the win!

I don't think so....

 

[brndnstffrd]

I don't think so....

Why not? I wish that more radios had it. I love being able to see unit IDs right on the radio, and not having to listen to DTMF ANI Ids, which i find way more annoying that MDC noise. Also the some of the functions are really cool like status checks, remote monitoring and private calls. I know that there are other systems, like NXDN and TRBO which do that, but there are alot more MDC radios, then TRBO or NXDN. Im waiting for one of the Chinese brands to make a dual band radio with it, i think that would be awsome to have a cheap, disposable dual band radio with MDC 1200. Also another thing witch probably will never happen, would be for scanners to decode MDC 1200 right on the unit, as im not bringing my laptop with me just to run a decoder. I dont think that it would take too much to add this functionality, just for some reason they dont think that there is enough need for it.

 

[mancow]

How do you propose to encode an alphanumeric callsign using MDC?

Why not? I wish that more radios had it. I love being able to see unit IDs right on the radio, and not having to listen to DTMF ANI Ids, which i find way more annoying that MDC noise. Also the some of the functions are really cool like status checks, remote monitoring and private calls. I know that there are other systems, like NXDN and TRBO which do that, but there are alot more MDC radios, then TRBO or NXDN. Im waiting for one of the Chinese brands to make a dual band radio with it, i think that would be awsome to have a cheap, disposable dual band radio with MDC 1200. Also another thing witch probably will never happen, would be for scanners to decode MDC 1200 right on the unit, as im not bringing my laptop with me just to run a decoder. I dont think that it would take too much to add this functionality, just for some reason they dont think that there is enough need for it.

 

[brndnstffrd]

How do you propose to encode an alphanumeric callsign using MDC?

I was speaking in an off-topic manner. I was just speaking htat i like it in general terms, not specifically to use instead of giving a call sign, but in in addition to, as was stated by someone else that they do both on their clubs repeater

 

[mancow]

Ok, I was thinking you were trying to use it to transmit a callsign. It would be nice if it were designed to transmit a full set of ASCII characters directly. That would be very handy and much more flexible.

 

[N4DES]

Why not? I wish that more radios had it. I love being able to see unit IDs right on the radio, and not having to listen to DTMF ANI Ids, which i find way more annoying that MDC noise. Also the some of the functions are really cool like status checks, remote monitoring and private calls. I know that there are other systems, like NXDN and TRBO which do that, but there are alot more MDC radios, then TRBO or NXDN. Im waiting for one of the Chinese brands to make a dual band radio with it, i think that would be awsome to have a cheap, disposable dual band radio with MDC 1200. Also another thing witch probably will never happen, would be for scanners to decode MDC 1200 right on the unit, as im not bringing my laptop with me just to run a decoder. I dont think that it would take too much to add this functionality, just for some reason they dont think that there is enough need for it.

Because the topic is being able to satisfy the FCC ID requirements in amateur radio within a data stream, which MDC1200 cannot do. Even APCO25, with its Radio ID as part of the data stream, cannot satisfy it even though Motorola provides the ability to do with SoftID that is capable of alpha numeric signaling for the reasons I explained above.

Like stevelton said, only D* is techncially capable of doing this for the end user, but to be safe I would still do a voice ID every 10 minutes no matter what protocol is being utilized.

I have always believed that D* does not satisfy the FCC ID requirements for the repeater itself as it does not auto ID in any emission that I have read, which was the actual patent submission that ICOM did not too long ago.

 

[DaveNF2G]

The identification must be comprehensible to channel users. Humans cannot "read" digital identifications (except Morse code), so voice ID is required on a voice channel.

You can send all the other stuff you want - digital burps, tactical calls, whatever - but you must ID by voice with your actual callsign every 10 minutes.