Narrowbanding of wildfire channels

Status
Not open for further replies.

zerg901

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
3,725
Location
yup
The federal land management agencies have narrowbanded their VHF highband Land Mobile Radio systems over the last dozen(?) years. I have not noticed a increase in the number of repeater sites that are used, therefore it seems to me that narrowbanding has NOT decreased radio range.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
The federal land management agencies have narrowbanded their VHF highband Land Mobile Radio systems over the last dozen(?) years. I have not noticed a increase in the number of repeater sites that are used, therefore it seems to me that narrowbanding has NOT decreased radio range.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

It has resulted in an increase in marginal coverage area. Some locations in the backcountry are now blind rather than marginal. The number of repeaters has increased. Remember that some of that increase occurred prior to narrowbanding process in anticipation of it. The number of standardized tones has increased from 8 to 12 to 16 and increased due to the installation of additional repeaters. There are now some National Forests in R5 utilizing 12-14 tones for an equal number of repeaters has increased.

I've forgotten the exact numbers involved in the new Grand Canyon National Park narrowbanded and digital system shows a significant increase in the number of repeaters. It may be as high as a doubling. This is not all due to narrowband/digital as some areas had poor coverage with analog as well, but on the relatively gentle terrain of the North Rim (Kaibab Plateau) there are some yet to be installed sites that are surprisingly close together.

I think that in many cases the agencies cannot afford to increase coverage into new blind areas. In some cases, especially in areas near my home, the numbers of employees, especially in the backcountry has fallen to near zero. So narrowbanding occurred about the same time the numbers of employees was being drastically reduced. That bumps the priority for new sites down. The Inyo National Forest has three major blind spots, 2 of those in the frontcountry and one in the backcountry. There is no solution in site for these and their size has grown since narrowbanding.

Bottom line, I don't share your perspective.
 

zerg901

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
3,725
Location
yup
I hear what you are saying Exsmokey, but here in the Boston Mass area as agencys convert to narrowband, I am not seeing any increase in the number of repeaters. And the radio coverage doesnt seem to be any worse. Maybe its more of a low power / rural area issue than a big city issue.
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
15,048
Location
Taxachusetts
Peter you are talking apples and oranges.

A City is so much smaller than many of the National Forests [outside of little ole New England] and only need 1 Repeater with of-course satelite Rcv sites into a comparator.

And Yes Smokey we have seen the increase in Federal Repeater sites for the Agencies here. Even the USCG recognized the need for additional site with Rescue 21

I hear what you are saying Exsmokey, but here in the Boston Mass area as agencys convert to narrowband, I am not seeing any increase in the number of repeaters. And the radio coverage doesnt seem to be any worse. Maybe its more of a low power / rural area issue than a big city issue.
 

zerg901

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
3,725
Location
yup
Relative power levels versus obstructions and path losses. Boston Fire has 3 repeater sites before and after narrowbanding AFAIK. Boston EMS has one repeater site for 50 square miles of dense urban terrain - before and after narrowbanding AFAIK. I have not seen Plymouth Mass apply for new repeater sites and they have to cover 100 square miles. I have not seen MEMA nor State Forestry apply for new repeater sites, and they have to cover the entire state.
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
15,048
Location
Taxachusetts
Exactly, - RX Sites do not get licensed. MEMA has been talking about all of their new RX Sites all week. ;)

We now return to Wildfire talk :roll:

Relative power levels versus obstructions and path losses. Boston Fire has 3 repeater sites before and after narrowbanding AFAIK. Boston EMS has one repeater site for 50 square miles of dense urban terrain - before and after narrowbanding AFAIK. I have not seen Plymouth Mass apply for new repeater sites and they have to cover 100 square miles. I have not seen MEMA nor State Forestry apply for new repeater sites, and they have to cover the entire state.
 

zerg901

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2005
Messages
3,725
Location
yup
Bill - I assume that when you say "RX site" you mean a "receive only site". That is not the same as a repeater site. A repeater site has both a "receiver" and a "transmitter". There has to be a solid comm path on both the input side, and the output side of a repeater. You seem to be saying that in the Boston area that the comm paths on the "input" sides are weak, but the comm paths on the "output" sides are fine. I have not heard Boston Fire, Boston Police, nor Boston EMS talking about any "new / additional" receiver sites.

Lets see - maybe this has something to do with the output power of the repeaters in the National Forests. Maybe they have 10 watt repeaters instead of 100 watt repeaters. In the case of a 10 watt repeater, the link budget would be closely balanced on both the input side and the output side of any repeater. Narrowbanding would affect both sides of the repeater equally. For a 100 watt repeater, without any satellite receivers, ??????
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
15,048
Location
Taxachusetts
PETER, I am well aware of what a Repeater is. :roll:

Guess it's time to BLOCK YOU out, as you have done to so many others who have passed along valid information

Your constant Second Guessing of Public Safety Personnel has finally gotten to me, as well as your desire for everyone from the Window Washer to the Chief Cook and Dishwasher needing to talk to the Fire Chief and Police Chief. O, sorry, I forgot the Elevator Operator

ExSmokey we can continue this elsewhere


Bill - I assume that when you say "RX site" you mean a "receive only site". That is not the same as a repeater site. A repeater site has both a "receiver" and a "transmitter". There has to be a solid comm path on both the input side, and the output side of a repeater. You seem to be saying that in the Boston area that the comm paths on the "input" sides are weak, but the comm paths on the "output" sides are fine. I have not heard Boston Fire, Boston Police, nor Boston EMS talking about any "new / additional" receiver sites.

Lets see - maybe this has something to do with the output power of the repeaters in the National Forests. Maybe they have 10 watt repeaters instead of 100 watt repeaters. In the case of a 10 watt repeater, the link budget would be closely balanced on both the input side and the output side of any repeater. Narrowbanding would affect both sides of the repeater equally. For a 100 watt repeater, without any satellite receivers, ??????
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
An interesting conversation here. I will stay out of the "fray." Peter, there is a huge difference between the terrain of Boston and that of western National Forests. In the area of the town I live in, within sight of my condo, is a view that exceeds 4,000 feet. The elevation of town is 7800 to 8200 feet and just south of town about 5 miles are three peaks of 12,000 feet plus. The eastern side of town, furthest from the crest of the Sierra Nevada, is lower in elevation than the western side. In many cases major drainages bend as they travel from their source to the toe of the slope of the mountains. The upper portion of the drainage is often behind high peaks. A repeater can be placed that provides good coverage for the lower portion of a drainage but cannot reach the upper portion very well at all. Placing a repeater on each peak that would provide coverage to the upper portions of drainages would require many dozens of additional repeaters. The logistics of doing so is one factor and the location of many of the peaks is in designated wilderness areas where new repeater sites are not allowed.

Repeater strength depends on whether the site has commercial power. Even so most of the repeaters on the Inyo National Forest run 100 watts or more. There are a few sites that are very remote and on some very windy peaks where the size of the solar collector won't provide enough power so they are at about 25-50 watts. Mobile radios run 25-50 watts and handhelds 5 watts max. The goal is to provide handheld coverage for the entire forest, but cannot be achieved for the reasons given above. In wilderness areas only a handheld can be carried and these areas have the most dramatic terrain. From a employee safety standpoint coverage in wilderness areas can be more critical than the frontcountry as employees often spend 10 consecutive days per 14 day pay period in the wilderness. The frontcountry is an area accessible by vehicle as opposed to backcountry (most often designated wilderness) where vehicles cannot provide access.

Peter, your eastern urban perspective often shows in your posts. It does sound as though you know very little about the west. Maybe you have some limited experience traveling in the west. In any case the west is quite different from the east. My limited exposure in the east is confined to North and South Carolina, which is really in the south. People in the east call something remote that would that is similar to some of the rural areas of the west that are less than an a half hour drive to the center of a good sized city. The mountains have less relief than our average foothills in the west. I've said many times on RR that remote begins where you may live in a town where you can't pick up your mail or buy milk and lettuce. A friend of mine lived, not at a small ranger station or fire station, but at a district office where the mail could be picked up 45 miles away (25 on dirt, 20 on pavement) but milk and lettuce were 90 miles away. The remote part of the district started at this ranger station. There wasn't commercial power or phone service, just generators and mobile phones, this before cell phones provided service. In fact, I don't think the area can be called remote if cell service exists. Remote can often be places where one travels several hours and doesn't cross a paved road, let alone drive on pavement, before strapping on a backpack or saddling the horses at a trailhead.

The point of the last paragraph is you can't compare the radio coverage of Massachusetts with much of anything west of Denver.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
Bill - I assume that when you say "RX site" you mean a "receive only site". That is not the same as a repeater site. A repeater site has both a "receiver" and a "transmitter". There has to be a solid comm path on both the input side, and the output side of a repeater. You seem to be saying that in the Boston area that the comm paths on the "input" sides are weak, but the comm paths on the "output" sides are fine. I have not heard Boston Fire, Boston Police, nor Boston EMS talking about any "new / additional" receiver sites.

Lets see - maybe this has something to do with the output power of the repeaters in the National Forests. Maybe they have 10 watt repeaters instead of 100 watt repeaters. In the case of a 10 watt repeater, the link budget would be closely balanced on both the input side and the output side of any repeater. Narrowbanding would affect both sides of the repeater equally. For a 100 watt repeater, without any satellite receivers, ??????

A principle of radio is that it is easy to hear a repeater, it is much more difficult to get the repeater to hear you. My amateur handheld can hear some repeaters in Nevada east my town 60 miles or so, but in no way can I activate the repeater. From town I can receive a repeater on the Sierra National Forest to my west, over the crest of the Sierra, some 60 miles away, however, there is no way I can key up the repeater. This is why some radio systems have several receive sites set up to input the repeater and the site that feeds the repeater has the best signal as determined by the voter. Continuous coverage of the repeater is seamless to the user.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top