PA Statewide P25 Phase 2 System

[W7FDX]

My belief is that the system has too many bloody talk groups. I know the state is huge, but they give away TG’s like candy on All Hallows’ Eve!

I've seen smaller systems with just as many talkgroups. When PA was on OpenSky they didn't have enough TGs for PennDOT so I think they overcompensated when they went P25. There's no reason each district needs 16 flagger TGs (1-5 would be fine) and I've never heard any of them used yet. I'm honestly surprised PSP doesn't have more TGs than they do.

 

[Railbender]

PennDOT is the only agency with an unreasonable amount of talkgroups, every other agency is well within normal parameters for a system this large. If you took every talkgroup for every agency and broke them down by county, it probably works out to be less than most countywide systems.

As of today I have logged 391 talkgroups on sites Erie 40 and Erie 80.

 

[GTR8000]

As of today I have logged 391 talkgroups on sites Erie 40 and Erie 80.

Logged doesn't mean they're all active. I'm sure only a fraction are active day to day, vs users spinning knobs and calling up talkgroups that aren't actually carried on those sites with any regularity. One site in the NE part of the state has over 410 talkgroups "logged", and yet only 20 or less are seen on a daily basis. That includes PennDOT which tend to only get busy when there's snow or bad road conditions. Given the propagation characteristics of VHF, it's wouldn't be unusual for subscribers in neighboring counties to come up on a distant site occasionally, dragging a talkgroup along with them that otherwise wouldn't be carried in that county.

 

[W7FDX]

Logged doesn't mean they're all active. I'm sure only a fraction are active day to day, vs users spinning knobs and calling up talkgroups that aren't actually carried on those sites with any regularity. One site in the NE part of the state has over 410 talkgroups "logged", and yet only 20 or less are seen on a daily basis. That includes PennDOT which tend to only get busy when there's snow or bad road conditions. Given the propagation characteristics of VHF, it's wouldn't be unusual for subscribers in neighboring counties to come up on a distant site occasionally, dragging a talkgroup along with them that otherwise wouldn't be carried in that county.

I live near the border of Northumberland and Lycoming County and I occasionally get DOT TGs from Luzerne, Dauphin, Juniata and sometimes even Lackawanna but it's usually a transmission or two then they move back to a more distant site that I don't monitor.

 

[KB3KBR]

IThere's no reason each district needs 16 flagger TGs (1-5 would be fine) and I've never heard any of them used yet. I'm honestly surprised PSP doesn't have more TGs than they do.

Why do they even have flagger TGs?? If they are line of site on a location they should be simplex not tying up a repeater!!

 

[W7FDX]

Why do they even have flagger TGs?? If they are line of site on a location they should be simplex not tying up a repeater!!

I think they're meant more for on the highways where they might be separated by a hill or something because I've never heard them used yet in my area. But yes I agree if they're LOS they should be on a simplex channel but since PennDOT is primarily on the VHF sites now I'm not sure what their simplex frequencies would be. In my are they're only running VHF radios so they can't use the old 800MHz A34T/D34T simplex channels that they used when they were on OpenSky.

 

[maus92]

It seems a bit wasteful for "flaggers" to use expensive subscribers to accomplish a simple task. TBH, in my area, contractors do "flagging" for the most part, using simple radios. Are we sure that the tgs are used exclusively for "flagging"? Perhaps "flagging" is an occasional use, with the tg used more often for other operational purposes.

 

[GTR8000]

The talkgroups are dedicated to flagging. That is what they are provisioned as in the system and subscribers. That doesn't mean that every Joe Schmo contractor who does flagging for PennDOT making $10 an hour in the summer is issued a personal APX, however the talkgroups are available for usage by those PennDOT employees who are issued radios, either permanently or from a pool/cache.

 

[HM1529]

Generally speaking, outside contractors like Flagger Force are not utilizing PennDOT radios. These channels are used by PennDOT personnel when they are directing traffic for their own projects. Outside workers use their own radios. This is part of why it is mildly perplexing that someone decided it would make sense to create a full 16 channel zone of talkgroups for every PennDOT district. It seems...a little excessive. They do also have direct channels. And, yes, flagger talkgroups do get used for other chit chat. But, they are definitely named for flagging.

 

[HM1529]

Forgot to mention that even with those dedicated flagging talkgroups, maintenance crews can be heard doing flagging work on the various county maintenance crew talkgroups, as well as other talkgroups. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it...just whatever a local crew decides to do day to day. They've also used nationwide VCALL and VTAC channels in the past...because they are in the radios and they could.

 

[bearcat]

It seems a bit wasteful for "flaggers" to use expensive subscribers to accomplish a simple task. TBH, in my area, contractors do "flagging" for the most part, using simple radios. Are we sure that the tgs are used exclusively for "flagging"? Perhaps "flagging" is an occasional use, with the tg used more often for other operational purposes.

The Penn Dot radios have at least these two simplex VHF frequencies (4 channels) in them, probably more.
151.8200 PL 100.0
151.8200 NAC 100
154.6000 PL 100.0
154.6000 NAC 100
These were found with close call while sitting at the STOP/SLOW signs. They were PennDot flaggers, not a contractor.
I would think they have more simplex channels. Possibly a complete Simplex Zone in the radios.
In my experience they use just about any TG for Flagging. Even the Global TGs at times.

 

[bearcat]

It seems a bit wasteful for "flaggers" to use expensive subscribers to accomplish a simple task. TBH, in my area, contractors do "flagging" for the most part, using simple radios. Are we sure that the tgs are used exclusively for "flagging"? Perhaps "flagging" is an occasional use, with the tg used more often for other operational purposes.

Those HTs are also used by the Salt/Plow trucks that PennDot contracts with. So they need to be capable of working on the trunked system.

 

[W7FDX]

The Penn Dot radios have at least these two simplex VHF frequencies (4 channels) in them, probably more.
151.8200 PL 100.0
151.8200 NAC 100
154.6000 PL 100.0
154.6000 NAC 100
These were found with close call while sitting at the STOP/SLOW signs. They were PennDot flaggers, not a contractor.
I would think they have more simplex channels. Possibly a complete Simplex Zone in the radios.
In my experience they use just about any TG for Flagging. Even the Global TGs at times.

Yea I have heard them on the Global TGs a few times doing traffic. They have a whole 16 channel zone per district for flagging TGs the Global zone is meant for interoperability between all the subscribers on the STARNet system not for flagging. They have no idea how many towers they're keying up when they use those TGs nor do I think they care. I just checked the ULS and neither of those frequencies are licensed to the state of Pennsylvania.

 

[R8000]

To be fair, the traffic loading on a trunked system from flaggers is a non issue.
Also, by having them on the system, emergency buttons, location, data services and the ability to receive a announcement talkgroup call such as a weather warning can still be received. If they were on simplex, they lose the ability to have these added safety features be used.

 

[bearcat]

Yea I have heard them on the Global TGs a few times doing traffic. They have a whole 16 channel zone per district for flagging TGs the Global zone is meant for interoperability between all the subscribers on the STARNet system not for flagging. They have no idea how many towers they're keying up when they use those TGs nor do I think they care. I just checked the ULS and neither of those frequencies are licensed to the state of Pennsylvania.

Just curious why they would be bringing more towers than any other TG?
Do Global TGs bring up sites even if no one is affiliated on a site?

 

[W7FDX]

Just curious why they would be bringing more towers than any other TG?
Do Global TGs bring up sites even if no one is affiliated on a site?

I could be wrong but my understanding is the Global TGs are system wide because the time I heard PennDOT traffic on them they were in the SW part of the state somewhere and I'm in NC PA. Like when they were doing those test counts on Global Tac 11 I heard them all over the state.

 

[W7FDX]

Yea I have heard them on the Global TGs a few times doing traffic. They have a whole 16 channel zone per district for flagging TGs the Global zone is meant for interoperability between all the subscribers on the STARNet system not for flagging. They have no idea how many towers they're keying up when they use those TGs nor do I think they care. I just checked the ULS and neither of those frequencies are licensed to the state of Pennsylvania.

Plus I just realized those are MURS frequencies which none of PennDOT's radios would be legally allowed to transmit on since they're capable of more than 2w and MURS is also analog only.

 

[bearcat]

I could be wrong but my understanding is the Global TGs are system wide because the time I heard PennDOT traffic on them they were in the SW part of the state somewhere and I'm in NC PA. Like when they were doing those test counts on Global Tac 11 I heard them all over the state.

I am not sure either. My guess is you heard them in NC Pa is because a radio in your area was affiliated to that TG. Like I said I could be wrong.

 

[HM1529]

I am not sure either. My guess is you heard them in NC Pa is because a radio in your area was affiliated to that TG. Like I said I could be wrong.

The "global" interop talkgroups are global in the sense that they are supposed to be in every single radio assigned to operate on the system, whether it is a Columbia Co radio, federal agency radio, state agency radio, etc. There is significantly more talkgroup sharing among agencies on this system vs the old one, so the importance of the globals is lessened a bit...but they still give a pool of talkgroups available for major events should they be needed. Like most other system talkgroups, these are only active on a site when a radio is affiliated to the site while on that talkgroup.

As for the MURS, I suppose that will continue until they are told not to do it.

 

[W7FDX]

The "global" interop talkgroups are global in the sense that they are supposed to be in every single radio assigned to operate on the system, whether it is a Columbia Co radio, federal agency radio, state agency radio, etc. There is significantly more talkgroup sharing among agencies on this system vs the old one, so the importance of the globals is lessened a bit...but they still give a pool of talkgroups available for major events should they be needed. Like most other system talkgroups, these are only active on a site when a radio is affiliated to the site while on that talkgroup.

As for the MURS, I suppose that will continue until they are told not to do it.

I'm just surprised the state allowed the MURS channels to be programmed in the radios in the first place. I wonder if they actually do have any simplex channels/zones in their radios besides the V-Call/V-Tac channels? For example I know the ECEN radios have an analog simplex channel in their radios labeled ECEN T/A.