The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

[trentbob]

Never let a good crisis go to waste.....

Yes the police Chiefs Association had asked for full-time encryption in March for the same reason, the Board of Supervisors said no and that's when we had a real crisis. It was very bad for us at that time. The Board of Supervisors have lost their spine since then.

 

[4436time]

Thanks for the detailed information.

Regardless of all the reasons for encryption (or maybe or not at all), at the end of the day the basis for it is to keep others out, and since streamers and cell phone app/computer users and scanner owner/enthusiasts make up the bulk of this audience, it's safe to say that this is primarily what's driving it. I would say infinitely moreso for streamers because they can and often do put hundreds or thousands of people at the scene of a crime, or incident, dwarfing the number of scanner owner/enthusiasts who actually live in the area and are listening in.

It wouldn't be necessary to encrypt without an audience, would it?

Some don't encrypt because they are running older analog equipment and cannot do it. (budget)
Some don't encrypt because interoperability hasn't been addressed yet in their area. (some agencies just can get along)
Some don't encrypt because they don't have an on staff radio person to tell them what they need to do. (basically run everything until it breaks then get sold all new stuff by the local dealer)
Some don't encrypt because they see value in not encrypting.

Some encrypt fully because they can.
Some encrypt fully so officers don't need to change channels to pass PII. <— that's a big one. Training officers to change channels can be difficult. Since there is no requirement that any communications be in the clear, some see it as just easier to encrypt everything and get on with life.
Some encrypt fully because the system they are subscribers on requires it.
Some encrypt fully because they see value in it.

Some only do partial encryption because they see a value in keeping some traffic in the clear.
Some only do partial encryption to maintain interoperability with adjacent agencies that may not have radios capable of encryption.
Some only do partial encryption to allow older radios to be used on the system.

And there's probably a few hundred other reasons. Like I've said before, each agency is going to do what they think is right, until forced to do otherwise. The agency I work with is fully analog right now, but I'm working on building a new system for them that will be partially encrypted. The county we are in is likely going to move most law enforcement to full encryption. A local city is going to have one encrypted channel, one in the clear.
Next county over is almost 100% on a 700MHz trunked system and all law enforcement is encrypted.
The state has reminded us recently that agreements that were signed said that all criminal justice personal info is protected and can't be transmitted in the clear. In the short term they are using cell phones or mobile terminals, but the chief wants at least one encrypted channel on the system. That chief is retiring from this agency and going to another where he'll probably ask for the same thing. Our new incoming chief may want to make everything encrypted.

As for some hosting their own feeds:
That gives them control. They can pull the plug if they need to. They can run a delay. I think it's a good solution and I wish more agencies would do it.

 

[Citywide173]

it's safe to say that this is primarily what's driving it.

It is primarily salesmen pointing out to the system owners that there are people listening and apps that can allow criminals to monitor. They then spew lies about officer safety and lower crime rates to convince them to throw the switch. It is the fear mongering of these bottom feeders causing it in most cases, not the actual listeners, the majority of whom are harmless, but villified to make a sale.

 

[4436time]

You mentioned this, and it's a tough one because it would seem that policemen have seen enough to know better. But I guess if it allows them to sleep good at night, what can you say?

 

[Citywide173]

You mentioned this, and it's a tough one because it would seem that policemen have seen enough to know better. But I guess if it allows them to sleep good at night, what can you say?

Having worked police, fire and EMS in my career, I can assure you that the radio is but a tool to do the job. The end user, no matter how often reminded, will forget that that tool is broadcasting to more than the intended recipients. I spend a lot of time with our new recruits reinforcing this concept, but the majority of them forget within the first year.

When reminded that people can listen combined with an option to block that, it's not a hard sale.

 

[mmckenna]

I would say infinitely moreso for streamers because they can and often do put hundreds or thousands of people at the scene of a crime, or event, which dwarfs the number of scanner owner/enthusiasts who might be in the area listening in.

At an APCO conference a few years back, one agency used a very specific situation to explain why they went encrypted:
Live shooter at a local high school.
Officers from all adjoining jurisdictions rush to the scene.
Some yahoo is doing a play by play on social media.
Hundreds of concerned parents rush to the scene to retrieve their children (I can understand this, I'm a parent).
Situation at the school is still active. Live shooter hasn't been apprehended.
Now a few hundred parents show up and try to rush the school to get their kids. Most of the officers on scene are now pressed into crowd control, keeping parents out of the scene. That slowed down response.

I get it, I'm a parent, but the person posting all this play by play on social media changed the dynamics of the situation.

That very situation was the reason said agency went fully encrypted. Officers needed to be doing their jobs, not tied up with crowd control.

It wouldn't be necessary to encrypt without an audience, would it?

If there was zero audience and all information shared over the radio was guaranteed to be secure, then no. But remember, it goes back to basic IT security standards.

 

[mmckenna]

It is primarily salesmen pointing out to the system owners that there are people listening and apps that can allow criminals to monitor. They then spew lies about officer safety and lower crime rates to convince them to throw the switch. It is the fear mongering of these bottom feeders causing it in most cases, not the actual listeners, the majority of whom are harmless, but villified to make a sale.

No. I understand your frustration, though.
And yes, salespeople are always trying to upsell.
At one point the drivers for encryption were a bit fuzzy. No doubt some sales people did push upselling systems with encryption. They did the same thing with narrow banding happened. They convinced a lot of people that the -only- way to achieve narrow banding was to go to digital. We know that's not the truth.
Encryption of public safety radio traffic is based of securing personal info. It's being mandated in some cases. I've laid it out clearly above, if you missed it, scroll up and take a read again.

 

[Citywide173]

Encryption of public safety radio traffic is based of securing personal info. It's being mandated in some cases. I've laid it out clearly above, if you missed it, scroll up and take a read again.

I have been in public safety since I was 16. In those ensuing 36 years, I have been a volunteer firefighter, a police dispatcher and an EMS provider, rising to the rank of Captain in my third-service municipal agency. I am tasked with education of the members of my department, which means I have to be well versed in the local/Federal laws affecting our operation. I also owned my own radio shop from 1989-1995. "Securing personal info" is one of the lamest excuses I have seen used by agencies. FD and EMS claim this is for HIPAA compliance and most people take it at face value when, in fact, there is no facet of HIPAA that addresses radio communications at all and there have been many legal analyses of HIPAA which have all agreed that the release of information to do the job properly is not a violation. As far as the PD goes, MDTs, cell phones and encrypted tactical/records channels are more than enough to meet the security of personal information requirement. If you listen to any police department today (if you can) the traffic is not packed with personal info.

I am lucky enough to work in an area that has chosen UHF conventional as it's primary communications frequency band for interoperability. Each city and town maintains it's own system and in some cases each agency in that city or town maintains the individual systems. There are no unincorporated parts of any county and the sheriff is only tasked with maintaining the jail and process serving. The state police are on a trunked system, but in the clear. Encryption is one of the largest enemies of interoperability here and, thankfully, most of the stakeholders understand and embrace that. If more places understood the damage the inability to monitor an adjacent/concurrent jurisdiction does, I think you would see less of it.

I, like you, believe that dispatch should be in the clear and tactical channels encrypted or, that selective encryption be available at the dispatch console with well defined SOPs on its use.

 

[MTS2000des]

I get it, I'm a parent, but the person posting all this play by play on social media changed the dynamics of the situation.

That very situation was the reason said agency went fully encrypted. Officers needed to be doing their jobs, not tied up with crowd control.

The very same concerns have prompted creation of encrypted talk groups here in light of recent events where civil unrest occurred and the actors were indeed using streams of radio traffic to evade and ambush law enforcement by monitoring their movements. Anyone who thinks this didn't happen is living in a fantasy world.

The dissemination of information is what is driving the move, and sadly, this is not going to stop with the social media "ME ME ME" craze. The threat is not radio hobbyists, it's the people with a back seat full of molotov's outside a mall at 3AM and a Metro PCS prepaid phone with "5-0 Radio" up with the AHJ's dispatch playing. It happened. It's real. That's the world we are in what is at hand.

 

[trentbob]

As I've always said in my decades of monitoring as a newspaper reporter, law enforcement never really had a problem with ham operators, media types, First Responders and serious hobbyist purchasing expensive equipment and monitoring them with good intentions.

With cell phone apps and some of the nitwits who use them, going to scenes and interfering, reporting on social media with their particular spin or interpretation of what's going on without confirmation or responsibility is something police can do without and they are, in growing numbers.

Same with criminals, they're stupid oh, that's why they're criminals and they don't have the wherewithal or resources to purchase expensive radios and program them but they're not too stupid to download a free app on their phone.

To me it's kind of simple what's driving encryption to spread faster than the virus, combine that with radio system salesman looking for that tax dollar and here we are.

 

[MTS2000des]

The people involved in acts of violence in our city were not stupid by any means. They were HIGHLY organized, many came from out of state, with the intent of causing physical harm to law enforcement/public safety and damage or destroy property (which they did), and were sophisticated in their operations. They had a network setup of intel gathering, and were subverting the efforts of first responders rolling to the fire and police calls for service they generated.
These domestic terrorists are bankrolled by someone. Do the math. These aren't 400lb kids sitting at home in their parent's basements. Their professional actors being paid to do as they did.

This is a whole different animal than the burglar in the night allegedly "using a scanner" to evade the cops coming to the alarm call.

 

[trentbob]

The people involved in acts of violence in our city were not stupid by any means. They were HIGHLY organized, many came from out of state, with the intent of causing physical harm to law enforcement/public safety and damage or destroy property (which they did), and were sophisticated in their operations. They had a network setup of intel gathering, and were subverting the efforts of first responders rolling to the fire and police calls for service they generated.
These domestic terrorists are bankrolled by someone. Do the math. These aren't 400lb kids sitting at home in their parent's basements. Their professional actors being paid to do as they did.

This is a whole different animal than the burglar in the night allegedly "using a scanner" to evade the cops coming to the alarm call.

You got a point there but we should not be talking politics on this thread LOL. We're lucky we have it as it is to vent. Philadelphia police knew that the hotels were all packed in Philadelphia with single males from out of town just waiting for the right time. News helicopters talked to each other on coordination frequencies on the Aviation band about the stock piles of sophisticated equipment in lots all over Philadelphia. Do you think the local citizens who were just taking advantage of a free shopping spree have the wherewithal to rip off those heavy metal barriers from the Walmart? This was a highly funded, sophisticated and city enabled operation and very effective as we have just witnessed nationally. Not sure we have to worry so much about mob Rule in certain cities anymore and we know who they are, until the next important election when the very effective successful organized operation will be repeated.

I'm guessing it might not even need to happen again, increased censorship, government-run media, permanent paper mail-in ballots, I don't think we're going to see a repeat of what we just saw. It certainly will be used as a reason for encryption but I just don't see this scenario repeating itself. It won't need to be.

If I was a local police chief I'd be more worried about the burglar listening to the cell phone LOL.

 

[MTS2000des]

Our agency supported elections deploying 100 cache radios, with encryption, to state, local and federal personnel posted at election sites. I can say from having been there everything was done with integrity, respect for the process, and with vigilance where I work. Encryption certainly was utilized to protect their communications from prying ears as it should be during such high profile events.

 

[trentbob]

I have no doubt many parts of the country are up and up, the city of Philadelphia, not so much LOL.

 

[KevinC]

During a recent local "uprising" participants were walking alongside officers and listening to the activity on the officers radios on one of the encrypted channels and relaying that info to others via Zello. It was announced numerous times over the radio to the officers to "use your earpiece". People will find a way.

 

[trentbob]

During a recent local "uprising" participants were walking alongside officers and listening to the activity on the officers radios on one of the encrypted channels and relaying that info to others via Zello. It was announced numerous times over the radio to the officers to "use your earpiece". People will find a way.

Here's a like, about as uncommon as you have ever given Me LOL. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours ...Bob...

 

[trentbob]

 

[mmckenna]

"Securing personal info" is one of the lamest excuses I have seen used by agencies. FD and EMS claim this is for HIPAA compliance and most people take it at face value when, in fact, there is no facet of HIPAA that addresses radio communications at all and there have been many legal analyses of HIPAA which have all agreed that the release of information to do the job properly is not a violation.

None of this applies under HIPAA. You are correct, agencies that use that are not reading it all, they are often assuming something.

Secure transfer of personal info when an officer is running a plate, drivers license, ID cards, etc. is all a legitimate. Remember what I wrote above about the state agencies that run the law enforcement terminal access. Law enforcement agencies agreed to these requirements. Now it's being enforced.

As far as the PD goes, MDTs, cell phones and encrypted tactical/records channels are more than enough to meet the security of personal information requirement. If you listen to any police department today (if you can) the traffic is not packed with personal info.

In most cases, yes. But there are other reasons to encrypt. I've cited some of the other reasons in previous posts.

 

[4436time]

I fail to see how encryption would've made any difference here. It has no bearing on someone with eyes and a smart phone posting on social media.

At an APCO conference a few years back, one agency used a very specific situation to explain why they went encrypted:
Live shooter at a local high school.
Officers from all adjoining jurisdictions rush to the scene.
Some yahoo is doing a play by play on social media.
Hundreds of concerned parents rush to the scene to retrieve their children (I can understand this, I'm a parent).
Situation at the school is still active. Live shooter hasn't been apprehended.
Now a few hundred parents show up and try to rush the school to get their kids. Most of the officers on scene are now pressed into crowd control, keeping parents out of the scene. That slowed down response.

I get it, I'm a parent, but the person posting all this play by play on social media changed the dynamics of the situation.

That very situation was the reason said agency went fully encrypted. Officers needed to be doing their jobs, not tied up with crowd control.

If there was zero audience and all information shared over the radio was guaranteed to be secure, then no. But remember, it goes back to basic IT security standards.

 

[mmckenna]

I fail to see how encryption would've made any difference here. It has no bearing on someone with eyes and a smart phone posting on social media.

One individual with a smart phone is easy to control and keep away from an active incident. One individual with a radio listening in and posting info and then a few hundred people showing up on scene is a different matter.