AR-DV10 very serious hardware issue

[blantonl]

Gentleman, cut it out, or the ban hammer is going to come down.

This is your one and only warning. Quit sniping at each other or find another place to participate.

 

[c0ne]

Here is another DMR compare with the Uniden, same frequency. The DV10 clearly sees its DMR just wont produce decoded audio. Not sure what AOR fixed, but i hardly notice anything regarding the DMR decoding. as before the voice/decoded audio comes from the Uniden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv4sKt6ifxE

 

[F5HPE]

A new firmware update was released on 13th July 2018 (1807A 2018/07/13). It allegedly addresses many issues, most importantly frequency stability and digital signals.
Currently DV10 owners are trying to test the new firmware. It is VERY important to remember that it was Forum Members who discovered these faults, and 'persuaded' AOR to eventually admit they existed and address them.
MOTIVES are an issue. Our motives were and are the same. All we want is for DV-10's to REALLY work correctly.
The motives of the Manufacturer, and some in the Retail chain MAY be only to make people 'THINK' the problems are 'fixed'.
I really hope they are fixed, however you may believe it 'wise' to keep up to date on what the Forum Members here, and at the Facebook Forum find regarding this latest, and any subsequent firmware updates.

It seems your understanding of the effect of members of the RR vs AOR is a bit filtered.
Please keep in mind AOR does not follow this forum to know the comments for DV10.

AOR takes into account e-mails that are correctly built, well-argued and above all well-founded at mail@aorja.com E-mail needs precise and clear explanations of the problems encountered (with measures) and devoid of any controversy.

Even if the motivations are the same between the amateurs and the professionals on the quality of the receivers, it turns out that one of two categories of users do not engage in public discussions and remain in their place to evolve the material . That's why the most proven buggos reported to AOR are transmitted by commercial and professional users as well as AOR resellers with their custoers and some high quality RR members whose numbers are counted on the fingers of Django Reinhardt's left hand.

In addition, the description of the firmware 1807 is as follows:
Feature improvements:
- Better frequency accuracy thanks to additional automatic temperature compensation via FPGA / CPU

DV10 new firmware IT IS NOT a bugg fix of the frequency stability depending on the temperature.
DV10 new firmware IMPROVED DV10 STABILITY frequency

enjoy your DV10

 

[c0ne]

Hi cOne,

Can you explain please the following so we can get a better understanding of your recent test on the DMR

What Antenna are you using
What location are you in (building, city, High RF environment etc.)
You said not much improvement, can you clarify.

Anything at all you can help with will be helpful. Thanks, want to attack these things one by one.

TMac20,

AOR is very clear on how they would like to see any issues/bugs being reported to them, this is directly to AOR Japan. If AOR needs any additional information, I will supply this to them. Up till this date AOR did not suggest the use of an unofficial middle man. I might provide additional information users of this board when I think its necessary.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[F5HPE]

TMac20,

AOR is very clear on how they would like to see any issues/bugs being reported to them, this is directly to AOR Japan. If AOR needs any additional information, I will supply this to them. Up till this date AOR did not suggest the use of an unofficial middle man. I might provide additional information users of this board when I think its necessary.

Thank you for your understanding.

c0ne: Thank you very much for your comments.
Regarding my previous post contradicted by a third party, your message is proof that I was expecting a member of the RR AOR forum.
Your post consolidates my previous goal when I wrote "AOR does not follow this forum to know the comments on DV10 ... AOR takes into account e-mails ... ."
and you wrote "AOR is very clear on how they would like to see any issues / bugs being reported to them, this is directly to AOR Japan"
Thank you very much.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

While it is easy to think that AOR designed a bad radio from the start, I do wonder if the engineering prototypes worked good, but problems were introduced during the move to full production, like a lot of bad parts, assembly mistakes, "equivalent" part substitution, revision of the PCB moving temperature sensitive components next to heat generating components, cost-reducing the design, etc...,

I remember the PC motherboard capacitor fiasco in the early 2000s where the manufacturers used capacitors that where not made properly. The problems did not show up until a couple of years later when the capacitors started developing bulges.

I think the drifting problem caught AOR flat-footed and they did not put their best foot forward. They may have thought it was a social media campaign by a few AOR haters to dis their great product. They may have thought everything was fine based on the performance of their prototypes and/or pilot production run.

I would also expect a solution to take months to engineer and release to production. The firmware update maybe an initial band-aid to improve things before a final fix is released.

I am interested in the results of any firmware upgrades, like when remote commands no longer hang the radio. It is important to also feedback direct to AOR Japan, even if they are on the forum.

73 Eric

 

[prcguy]

I've worked in the CB and Land Mobile design and manufacturing end and wonder how AOR evaluates their products during design. For the US based company I worked for, prototypes were not only run through the ringer on a test bench but pre production radios were taken home by engineers and operated on air to discover any potential problems in the outside world. Lots of things can show up with an antenna connected vs just measuring one or a couple of signals produced by a signal generator on a test bench.

I also wonder if digital signals like P25, DMR and others are available over the air in Japan or if prototypes were tested with external antennas in areas with these signals?

On the frequency drift problem, its possible there are temperature reading devices in the DV10 that can be read and commands sent to other parts of the radio like if temp = X then adjust something else by XX. I have a radio now that does that and with a custom customer performed cal using your freezer and hair dryer, the overall frequency stability is about 10X better than the ratings of its internal master osc. So it may be possible that AOR can improve the frequency stability with a firmware upgrade that reads temps and makes adjustments.

I really hope AOR fixes some of these problems as I really want to buy one but will not in its current reported condition.

Hello,

While it is easy to think that AOR designed a bad radio from the start, I do wonder if the engineering prototypes worked good, but problems were introduced during the move to full production, like a lot of bad parts, assembly mistakes, "equivalent" part substitution, revision of the PCB moving temperature sensitive components next to heat generating components, cost-reducing the design, etc...,

I remember the PC motherboard capacitor fiasco in the early 2000s where the manufacturers used capacitors that where not made properly. The problems did not show up until a couple of years later when the capacitors started developing bulges.

I think the drifting problem caught AOR flat-footed and they did not put their best foot forward. They may have thought it was a social media campaign by a few AOR haters to dis their great product. They may have thought everything was fine based on the performance of their prototypes and/or pilot production run.

I would also expect a solution to take months to engineer and release to production. The firmware update maybe an initial band-aid to improve things before a final fix is released.

I am interested in the results of any firmware upgrades, like when remote commands no longer hang the radio. It is important to also feedback direct to AOR Japan, even if they are on the forum.

73 Eric

 

[c0ne]

They once replied that tests could take some time, since they dont have DMR networks and live signals in JP.

 

[F5HPE]

...
On the frequency drift problem, its possible there are temperature reading devices in the DV10 that can be read and commands sent to other parts of the radio like if temp = X then adjust something else by XX. I have a radio now that does that and with a custom customer performed cal using your freezer and hair dryer, the overall frequency stability is about 10X better than the ratings of its internal master osc. So it may be possible that AOR can improve the frequency stability with a firmware upgrade that reads temps and makes adjustments.....

PRCGUY: if you pay attention to last DV10 firmware upgrade, AOR annouced as below:

"1807A 2018/07/13
Feature improvements:
- Better frequency accuracy through additional automatic temperature compensation by FPGA/CPU
- Better P25 and DMR decoding
..."

As you can read AOR had annouced FEATURE IMPROVEMENTS , not bug fix.

May I think this to be a big part of the answer to your question?

I thinl it would be better to open a new thread about above.

 

[woodpecker]

Hello

Let's all work together to test (even though I can;t do much yet because I have not purchased the unit - I'm willing to help at least document things/check things off/clarify), verify, outline what is still a problem with clarity and no one attacking anyone. That was we can all have a good outcome from AOR. They are a world leading, respected company, I'm certain they will work as hard as possible to sort things out - maybe not in the time we all want them to, but let's all be patient and work together.

We don't need the help of someone in Australia that doesn't own a DV10.

All testing, faults, bugs videos and results will be emailed direct to AOR as requested on their website and will also be documented on the aoruk blog website:-

A world respected leading company would NOT have done the following:-

1. Released a radio in this half finished state, off frequency and drifting.
2. Tell the customer the problem is unlikely even when shown evidence of the problem.
2. Still not have really fixed anything weeks after problems highlighted.
3. Ignore customer emails and provide no updates to customers.
4. Try to lay the blame on stupid things like the antenna supplied.

I have told AOR one of the main reasons the DMR and NXDN decoding is poor in comparison to other receivers, I have offerred to help them test things but they show no interest, they want to continue down their path which is not working and never will until they address some of the fundamental issues that are wrong, most of which are firmware fixable.

The DV10 had the potential to be THE portable receiver to buy, unfortunately it turned out to be the one NOT to buy. A $100 windows tablet plus $10 dongle with DSDPlus does a better job than a DV10 in its current state.

 

[prcguy]

I read and completely understood the AOR firmware upgrade announcement and thank you for asking. I was just sharing my experience about a radio with actual software frequency compensation saying it can work, but I was also questioning why AOR might be where they are with the DV10 problems by not running adequate field testing on prototypes.

It seems very easy for users to get the current DV10 to reveal its problems and that should have been caught well before releasing to the public.

PRCGUY: if you pay attention to last DV10 firmware upgrade, AOR annouced as below:

"1807A 2018/07/13
Feature improvements:
- Better frequency accuracy through additional automatic temperature compensation by FPGA/CPU
- Better P25 and DMR decoding
..."

As you can read AOR had annouced FEATURE IMPROVEMENTS , not bug fix.

May I think this to be a big part of the answer to your question?

I thinl it would be better to open a new thread about above.

 

[woodpecker]

I know your not happy with the situation, I have read all your posts and comments here and in other places. You have made your point and I am wondering why you just don't send the unit back for a refund, then your annoyance can be put to bed.

The reason I have not sent it back yet is because I would like the product to succeed, I can see the DV10 has potential if only AOR would listen to what needs doing to it.

What worries me is their attitude and reluctance to communicate, look at how this latest firmware is listed, trying to put the DV10 on frequency so it works and back into spec is a "new feature", in no way is that a feature its an attempt to fix the most serious flaw in the whole unit, an off frequency radio is no use to anyone.

If you give me your email address I'll send you more details.

 

[woodpecker]

Request sent to you in RR

Request has been accepted

 

[woodpecker]

woodpecker has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

Ahh, I changed it.

 

[woodpecker]

Faults and Bugs Still Present in DV10 Firmware 1807A

Tests results on AOR DV10 firmware 1807A, some small improvements but a long way to go.

Frequency drift – Initial test on the frequency drift shows some improvement but further testing is continuing, as the radio warms up from ambient, at 459MHz it ended up 1500Hz off frequency when hot. Cooling the radio, couldn’t get anywhere near the spec limit of -10 degrees C but at around 0-5 degress C the radio drifted the other direction around -1400Hz, this would equate to around +/- 3ppm which although may be in spec is pretty dismal for a modern radio. It would also make it unsuitable for search and rescue use as you be in between cospas channels that are only spaced 3kHz apart.

Testing at HF shows a much bigger ppm drift, when cold the radio was almost 400Hz off frequency, 72ppm off which is way outside the spec.

No noticeable improvement could be found with DMR decoding, the DV10 still has no option to select a 6kHz filter in automode AUT1 or in modes like DMR, the option to user select the IFBW for all modes would be an easy way to improve performance.By having the automode AUT1 fixed at 15kHz its impossible to search using 6.25kHz steps as the radio will stop on the wrong frequency, it is also impossible to monitor a DMR channel spaced 3.125kHz away from a NXDN signal which is common in here.

Remote control memory related commands still lock the radio solid, tried writing 10 memories using MX command, even with 5 second delay between each command radio ends up locked requiring battery removeal, seems to corrupt the radio, sometimes need full reset afterwards.It seems any command related to writing the DV10 internal memory, memory commands, search bank commands, set a search pass frequency (PW command) cause the radio to lock solid and cause corruption.

2.6kHz SSB filter still seems to randomly not work and produced a garbled mess, no improvement in SSB audio could be found, just the filter problem still.

 

[marlbrook]

Thanks

Oh dear, not a lot of changes then

 

[marlbrook]

Thanks Woodpecker

A new firmware update was released on 13th July 2018 (1807A 2018/07/13). It allegedly addresses many issues, most importantly frequency stability and digital signals.
Currently DV10 owners are trying to test the new firmware. It is VERY important to remember that it was Forum Members who discovered these faults, and 'persuaded' AOR to eventually admit they existed and address them.
MOTIVES are an issue. Our motives were and are the same. All we want is for DV-10's to REALLY work correctly.
The motives of the Manufacturer, and some in the Retail chain MAY be only to make people 'THINK' the problems are 'fixed'.
I really hope they are fixed, however you may believe it 'wise' to keep up to date on what the Forum Members here, and at the Facebook Forum find regarding this latest, and any subsequent firmware updates.

Thanks Woodpecker. I know you are a trained Radio Engineer and have good testing equipment, and like mine, your motives are to help others who have, or are considering the DV10. Seems as important as ever to follow these posts, and on other Forums.

 

[F5HPE]

...., this would equate to around +/- 3ppm which although may be in spec is pretty dismal for a modern radio. It would also make it unsuitable for search and rescue use as you be in between cospas channels that are only spaced 3kHz apart.....
.

Hey woodpecker
My offer I done some days before is still valid !
If you have planned to spend a few days of summer vacation in the country of Football World Cup 2018 Champions , do you think to make a hook by Paris?
If so, I invite you to share several beers at the feet of the Effeil Tower.
And I will give you training on COSPAS, PLB and SAR.
Be reassured you will not have to pay anything.
It will be my pleasure to share this knowledge with you.
Cheers

 

[woodpecker]

Reading AORs description about discriminator recording, what exactly were they thinking when:-

1. Each time you want to swap between discriminator audio and just audio, you have to remove the SD card, insert it into a PC and add a blank file with DISC in it, what happened here, was the firmware guy on holiday and the janitor wrote some botch code, how about a menu option to activate and deactivate it?

2. It says "use to decode CTCSS, SCA, FSK, RTTY, FAX, Pager data, and trunked system control data, etc... For details we invite you to ask Google."

So each time you want to decode something you have to remove the SD card, put it back in the PC and then play back your discriminator recording, does this sound like a professional solution on a very expensive radio or some kind of after thought botch?

 

[Ubbe]

Guys, please! This is an open forum where everyone are allowed to view his own opinion. If a product do not live up to its advertising or its performance are not what to be expected in relation to what you paid for it, then you should try and inform as many presumtive buyers as possible to let them know what they might be getting into. But never ever try to impose your own opinion onto others.

If you buy a new expensive car and you notice that it drifts all over the road, you'll want it fixed. Then you might hear that other have the exact same problem and it is a manufacturing fault. You take it to the repair shop and they try to correct the problem but the adjustments are bottoming out and they return a car that drift a little left at low speed and a little right at high speed. The manufacture says it is withtin specs and you only have to steer a little right at low speed and a little left at high speed to correct it. It would not only be annoying driving that car it would also give side effects like excessive tyre wear and higher fuel consumption.

I would never accept such behaviour from a manufacturer of an expensive car that I would expect to have better road handling than less expensive cars that doesn't drift at all. I would demand to have the hardware replaced so that a full adjustment can be made and would let everybody know in any way I can about the problem that the manufacturer have no acceptable solution presented at this time and make certain that the information is found during a google search for a very long time.

/Ubbe