The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

W8KIC

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Times have changed.
If an agency wants to get the word out to the pubic, there are much more efficient ways to do that than expecting random scanner owners to be the eyes and ears of the department.
Better/more accurate information can be blasted out to every single individual with a cell phone, e-mail address, or social media account.
So what happens when the bad guys decide to setup their own social media accounts to keep abreast of what law enforcement is currently engaged in or shortly thereafter as a result of what those agencies just posted? Look, I get it. There's no perfect solution to this whole thing and I fully understand the need for encryption to be employed for the vast majority of what law enforcement has to deal with, day in and day out. But having the dispatch channels encrypted full time is a bit over the top. The number of law abiding citizens who just want to keep up with what their local LE agencies are doing en route to various calls for service far outnumber the handful of losers who're running scanner apps in their attempt to circumvent the law. If those agencies are that paranoid during a Bona fide emergency, they can always flip the encryption switch on the dispatch channel during the course of said emergency. And to those supervisors who're afraid their personnel will actually forget to flip the "E" switch during the onset of a legit crises, LEARN HOW TO USE THE NEW TECHNOLOGY THAT THE TAXPAYERS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY HAVE JUST SPENT A FORTUNE ON TO HELP YOU PERFORM YOUR JOBS IN A MORE EFFICIENT MANNER! Police officers are, by and large, intelligent individuals who're more than up to the task of performing a few baby steps on their radios to achieve their objective of cutting off the outside world to the crises at hand!
 
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drdispatch

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....The number of law abiding citizens who just want to keep up with what their local LE agencies are doing en route to various calls for service far outnumber the handful of losers who're running scanner apps in their attempt to circumvent the law...
And how many states (like mine) already have laws on the books making it illegal to use a scanner in the commission of a crime, or in some cases, to even have one in a vehicle? Maybe enforcing the existing law might help?
 

mmckenna

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So what happens when the bad guys decide to setup their own social media accounts to keep abreast of what law enforcement is currently engaged in or shortly thereafter as a result of what those agencies just posted?

There are many benefits to using social media:
Agencies can choose not to share specific details that would jeopardize what they are doing.
Agencies can share more detailed information than a string of 10 codes and jargon that makes sense to everyone.
Agencies can reach a much wider population than just the scanner hobbyists.
Agencies can control what specific details are shared, reducing the chance of inexperienced individuals panicking about what they think they are hearing.
Agencies can easily share photos, videos or more detailed information over social media.

Agencies have zero requirements to cater to scanner listeners and hobbyists. That's a small segment of the overall population and they can do more good by reaching out to a larger audience via social media.


Look, I get it.

I'm not sure you do.

There's no perfect solution to this whole thing

Depends on what your point of view is. Encryption works exceedingly well.

and I fully understand the need for encryption to be employed for the vast majority of what law enforcement has to deal with, day in and day out. But having the dispatch channels encrypted full time is a bit over the top. The number of law abiding citizens who just want to keep up with what their local LE agencies are doing en route to various calls for service far outnumber the handful of losers who're running scanner apps in their attempt to circumvent the law. If those agencies are that paranoid during a Bona fide emergency, they can always flip the encryption switch on the dispatch channel during the course of said emergency.

Over simplification of the process doesn't help your argument. There are specific DOJ/FBI requirements and those requirements don't have an option for "whoops, sorry, we forgot…".

And to those supervisors who're afraid their personnel will actually forget to flip the "E" switch during the onset of a legit crises, LEARN HOW TO USE THE NEW TECHNOLOGY THAT THE TAXPAYERS OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY HAVE JUST SPENT A FORTUNE ON TO HELP YOU PERFORM YOUR JOBS IN A MORE EFFICIENT MANNER! Police officers are, by and large, intelligent individuals who're more than up to the task of performing a few baby steps on their radios to achieve their objective of cutting off the outside world to the crises at hand!

If only it was that easy.
 

chrismol1

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So this will be a weird question

Has anyone in an encrypted area with radios given to media noticed better reporting vs when was unencrypted?
 
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drdispatch

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So this will be a weird question

Has anyone in an encrypted area with radios given to media noticed better reporting vs when was unencrypted?
The reporter who covered police, fire, & the courts for our local newspaper asked to be loaned a radio so he could still monitor the police. He was flatly refused.
 

WX4JCW

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this thread has been up since 2011, and what i learned is there is no middle ground in this argument, the only solution is to continue to apply pressure, no ones mind is actually going to be changed through debate, so if you are anti encryption you have 2 choices, sit down shut up and take it, or be proactive and (legally) become a nusiance, fight where you can fight, and irritate them, all you really can do.
 

marcotor

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this thread has been up since 2011, and what i learned is there is no middle ground in this argument, the only solution is to continue to apply pressure, no ones mind is actually going to be changed through debate, so if you are anti encryption you have 2 choices, sit down shut up and take it, or be proactive and (legally) become a nusiance, fight where you can fight, and irritate them, all you really can do.
Or just make up things to try to scare people, right?
 

WX4JCW

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Or just make up things to try to scare people, right?
Not at all, I just disagree with your position and decided to fight it, I never expected the powers that be would be happy with my position, and most likely would attack it, I will never make up anything false in the fight, i cant control anyone else, besides its of no benefit to put anything flase out there, your side has to be right 100% of the time, we only need to be right once.
 

marcotor

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Not at all, I just disagree with your position and decided to fight it, I never expected the powers that be would be happy with my position, and most likely would attack it, I will never make up anything false in the fight, i cant control anyone else, besides its of no benefit to put anything flase out there, your side has to be right 100% of the time, we only need to be right once.
Well, again I don't have a "side". Amazingly there are things in life that don't need to have line of death in the sand "sides".
I live in an area that has been encrypted for more than 20 years. Apparently, you only bother to read the points you can use to turn up the histrionics, persecution, and general paranoia to make your position.

MY position is going about that way isn't going to get you where you want. It's perfectly fine. I wonder if you could reply to this without mentioning you being attacked, silenced, ostracized, et al.

Keep in mind YOU cited "people in the know" were grumbling about encryption making radio transmissions hard to understand. And when asked about a source, instead of identifying one went into the old, familiar, "they don't want us to know the truth" thing.
 

johngdoty

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I just noticed that there are over a half a million of us on this web site! 500K+! Would that be enough to start a campagine to fight police encryption of routine pricinct level comms? If we could some how fund the legal expence to get this issue heard by someone who could resolve it, at least then we can say that an effort was made. Whether it's "yes, cops have a good reason to encrypt", or "no, cops must let the public have a real time ear on their routine comms", it can be said that someone made the effort to settle things. Let's not let this issue die 'cause no one cared enough. Just ranting about it woun't change anything. I for one would give $10 in hopes that all of us would match that. $5 million would give us a chance to see which way this issue and this country's liberties will go.
I remember a time when the cops didn't want people videotaping them either. Seems like this is very similar.
 

bklynrob70

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My opinion, it sucks that police are moving towards increasing full time encryption. I got my first scanner in 1983 when I was 13 years old. Listening to the radio world of police responding to calls had a major influence to my choosing a career in law enforcement. Having access to police communications is an effective way to link citizens with their police department in a positive way.

With that said, the reality is the vast majority of citizens have no knowledge or interest in scanning. 500+ thousand members nationally? Internationlly? is a tiny percent of the national population. The country will throw a massive cow if TikTok gets banned but the response to encryption nationally is a collective “meh” at best.

How to change it? I don’t know but I think the answer is linking big tech to traditional scanning. For instance, FaceBook, X, Youtube become involved in marketing live scanner feeds to its users. Aggressive marketing could be a force multiplier that generates far more interest in live feed scanning, which means a larger collective voice to push back politically when an agency considers FT encryption.

I don’t think we will see any federal law that will prohibit LE agencies from FT encryption. That pressure has to come from citizens to the elected/appointed officials at the local level.

My ten cents.
 

kikito

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Agencies have zero requirements to cater to scanner listeners and hobbyists.
That’s NOT what is about and if you would only get off your arrogant, conceited high horse for minute so you can listen to common sense before YOU and all of us are under the full thumb of a police state… In many cities we’re already at the mercy of whatever the local government and law enforcement decides to release to the public that’s not deemed by ONLY them, a “national security issue”. But go ahead with your arrogant BS that wouldn’t last for a minute face to face with a real person on the street while you’re under the protection of the gatekeeping of most “compliant and subservient” websites and online sources…
 

kikito

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I remember a time when the cops didn't want people videotaping them either. Seems like this is very similar.
Most people have noticed the gradual changes for the worst against the citizens throughout several DECADES that we actually have LIVED through. Now more than ever, government and law enforcement are operating under the most obscurity and secrecy than ever while WE THE PEOPLE are the most open ever to scrutiny and invasion of privacy. Just look at the clowns in Congress voting again in favor to renew AND expand the warrant-less spying on everybody under the guise of “national security”. See you all at the bread line…
 

paulears

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This does seem to be the impression a small percentage of the population believe - and borders on paranoia. However, the entire world has got very hot on rights - and rights always advantage one party or another. They can be trivial to some - like the notion that music should be free and the musicians are being unreasonable for wanting paying. It's very common on things like Facebook for people to want music at events and offer 'exposure' not money, and the musicians say no are vilified. We now have Police body cams, but also body cams on people at checkouts in stores? The world changes. We expect privacy, yet the law accepts that expecting privacy in some circumstances is unreasonable.

Moving to radio, if the law allows interception of radio comms as legitimate, then it's OK. The people having their comms intercepted also have the right under law to encrypt it? If they accept people listen in and use some kind of code, that works, but it's easier and simpler to press the encrypt button, once, and for good. The argument that people doing bad deeds should be protected and not be revealed has for and against. Do criminals also lose privacy? Sometimes they do. Maybe it's a scale?
Should the comms in a shoe shop be made private - all those "try a 10" calls?
Should the comms in a school be made private - John Smith's parents at apartment B 12 cross road have been called away but have left the back door open?
Should the Police comms be made private - Fred Jones the murderer is in a cafe at the bottom of Cliff Hill?
I suspect most would see the problem with the school one, but how about the murderer or his friends being tipped off.

I doubt anyone would object to messages about potential terrorist attacks being encrypted? However a few rights people might even consider this one wrong?

I've been selling radios for years that have had a tick box in the software saying encrypt, but I never ticked it. Now, people are asking the question "can this radio be made secure from eavesdropping?" - I say yes, tick the box, and locally the scanner users lose another. I have even done somethings that might even be wrong? I sell lots of marine kit. Many boats have open VHF marine radios AND DMR systems that they use for safety specific stuff to do with offshore work they want kept private. A few have asked me to put the ordinary marine channels in the DMR radio, so they only have one radio. Here in the UK, we don't have formal type approval, only a requirement for equipment to be able to meet the spec in terms of the usual interference, power, spurious emissions etc - a DMR radio meets most of those requirements, and I've done a few for these customers.

None of this is some kind of Government led removal of rights or some secrecy program - it's just common sense. Everyone believes in some degree of secrecy in their lives nowadays, but some believe EVERYTHING is a secret unless it isn't while others believe nothing is a secret unless it has to be?

All those people using GMRS who believe the secrecy codes mentioned on the boxes really make their conversations secret. For many, that is why they bought them! The American 'We the People' is so quaint now. I worry my own Government is too easy on rights, and there are people here pushing for us to unlink fro the European Court of Human Rights, which many of us believe is protecting the bad and not protecting the weak.
 

BinaryMode

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To froth up the soap box, the fact the government (Executive branch) thinks they can operate in a clandestine way like the former KGB or Hitler SS elites all the while they claim "public safety" demonstrates to this observer that we are not only living in a Feudal-like environment, but one that is more tyrannical and not as free as what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Again, to this observer.

You can see what the Founding Fathers had in mind just by reading the first part of the Declaration of Independence. And I quote from the National Archives:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"




- Dispatch for state and local public safety Comms needs transparency.

- Dispatch for state and local public safety Comms needs to provide a feed with a mandatory minimum/maximum five (5) minute delay to ALL citizenry by order of an amendment to the state's constitution.

But no, lets legalize weed, magic mushrooms, and next on the docket, I kid you not is probably heroin and every other stupid thing imaginable or tax...

Anyway...
 
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