Turn XTS into a scanner

[knockoffham]

Update: in the few months since now I have learned a whole lot about P25 trunking (and conventional), done some professional work on various Astro radios and made a few not bad scanners using non-affiliate scan with XTS, Astro Saber, and Astro Spectras (had to make a million conventional channels and scan lists). I also did do the weird cross band repeater setup for a little while just for fun. And have a proper scanner as well now. I might later try some hex editing or something to get one to listen to a trunked system control channel-only without transmitting or needing a system key and disable the RF amp in case I screw it up. I know I can just get a Unication but where’s the fun? I now do have a proper base station scanner but for whatever reason I like the idea of an XTS sitting on a charger long after it should have retired being used as a weird scanner. Only thing I haven’t messed with yet is OP25 or similar. I have used a Unication, it was pretty cool, didn’t belong to me though.

 

[GTR8000]

The update we've all been waiting for. 🙌

done some professional work on various Astro radios

😵‍💫

 

[ElroyJetson]

So you're documenting your progress ON A PUBLIC FORUM in learning how to do something that is at least a subject of interest to certain system administrators, and/or certain LEOs, and possibly even federal agencies, regarless of whether or not these activities are illegal, or a felony, (but they may be....), and you're OK with that?

Do you really thing that's wise? Or advisable? Or raises your status?

Raising your heat score is not advisable. Not if you seek wisdom.

First rule of Fight Club. Take the hint!

 

[knockoffham]

The update we've all been waiting for. 🙌

😵‍💫

Oh yeah 😎 (haven’t worked on anything trunking professionally yet though)

 

[knockoffham]

So you're documenting your progress ON A PUBLIC FORUM in learning how to do something that is at least a subject of interest to certain system administrators, and/or certain LEOs, and possibly even federal agencies, regarless of whether or not these activities are illegal, or a felony, (but they may be....), and you're OK with that?

Do you really thing that's wise? Or advisable? Or raises your status?

Raising your heat score is not advisable. Not if you seek wisdom.

First rule of Fight Club. Take the hint!

Nothing illegal, just non-affiliate scan. Works the same way as scanning though conventional channels because as far as the radio knows that is what it’s doing. Yeah maybe later I’ll try to see if I can have one track a control channel without system keys or affiliation but that’s also the same way control channel scanners like the PRO-96 work and they’re not illegal.

 

[GTR8000]

I don't think you understand what "non-affiliate scan" actually refers to/entails. Hint: it does not refer to programming the site frequencies in conventional mode and scanning them in a conventional scan list. But since you're now a professional, perhaps you already knew that. 🤷‍♂️

 

[KD9RTX]

Nothing illegal, just non-affiliate scan. Works the same way as scanning though conventional channels because as far as the radio knows that is what it’s doing. Yeah maybe later I’ll try to see if I can have one track a control channel without system keys or affiliation but that’s also the same way control channel scanners like the PRO-96 work and they’re not illegal.

Thanks for schooling us. 🙄

 

[N4KVE]

So you're documenting your progress ON A PUBLIC FORUM in learning how to do something that is at least a subject of interest to certain system administrators, and/or certain LEOs, and possibly even federal agencies, regarless of whether or not these activities are illegal, or a felony, (but they may be....), and you're OK with that?

Do you really thing that's wise? Or advisable? Or raises your status?

Raising your heat score is not advisable. Not if you seek wisdom.

First rule of Fight Club. Take the hint!

Nothing personal, but how many times over the years have you bragged to us all here on RR that you invented NAS, or “were the first to figure it out”? Why, for the same reasons you’ve mentioned?

 

[knockoffham]

I don't think you understand what "non-affiliate scan" actually refers to/entails. Hint: it does not refer to programming the site frequencies in conventional mode and scanning them in a conventional scan list. But since you're now a professional, perhaps you already knew that. 🤷‍♂️

Wait then what does it mean? I always assumed it meant scanning like conventional channels and not affiliating? Is it just programming a radio to the system but setting it to only affiliate on PTT? Could you link me a thread on it or something? Thanks.

And has anyone ever done a janky trunking system listening without being on the system solution in a professional capacity? I certainly haven’t. My (limited) professional experience lies in mostly conventional radio and the digital stuff I have worked with is mostly basic DMR. Still am by no means an expert in janky scanning solutions or most things RF in general.

 

[knockoffham]

Thanks for schooling us. 🙄

When forum people dish out some sass I assume they can take some too.

 

[ElroyJetson]

It's not hard to tell who knows the difference between conventional mode scanning of trunked talkgroups (which is really safe and totally non problematic in any way, shape, or form, except in busy systems it can make tracking conversations very difficult) and true NAS which is always much more legally "Grey area".

Some people get angry at me for telling them what they don't want to hear. That's their maturity problem, not mine.

I learned long ago that being a motivational speaker can be a hazardous job if your slant on motivational speaking is to tell people the truth about themselves. This causes you to have to learn how to outrun and hide from angry mobs.

People don't want to hear the truth. Especially if it is unflattering to them.

 

[DVINTHEHOUSEMAN]

Wait then what does it mean? I always assumed it meant scanning like conventional channels and not affiliating? Is it just programming a radio to the system but setting it to only affiliate on PTT?

Non-affiliate scan in the traditional method involves monitoring the control channel and the radio following the channel grants to get voice traffic. You will need a system key to program this way. The affiliate on PTT is only for the old Type II systems. On P25 9600 systems it will automatically attempt to affiliate once placed on a trunked channel, even when transmit is disabled in CPS. You must use the scan list method to monitor this way.

There's a lot of things that go into making it so there's a near zero chance of affiliating on accident. Google is your friend.

 

[knockoffham]

Non-affiliate scan in the traditional method involves monitoring the control channel and the radio following the channel grants to get voice traffic. You will need a system key to program this way. The affiliate on PTT is only for the old Type II systems. On P25 9600 systems it will automatically attempt to affiliate once placed on a trunked channel, even when transmit is disabled in CPS. You must use the scan list method to monitor this way.

There's a lot of things that go into making it so there's a near zero chance of affiliating on accident. Google is your friend.

Thank you! I didn’t realize it meant actual control channel trunking (kind of).

 

[DVINTHEHOUSEMAN]

Thank you! I didn’t realize it meant actual control channel trunking (kind of).

IIRC, Motorola implemented this feature early into the ASTRO25 radios because users scanning both conventional and trunked personalities in the same scanlist would be constantly affiliating and unaffiliating from the system every time a channel grant was broadcast and the scan delay timer expired, and it was overloading the system. P25 can only output 40 single TSBKs per second, and even less on a multi-block system, so having the datastream saturated with unit registration requests and the subscribers walking over each other is a recipe for disaster.

They found out quickly that only affiliating on PTT when it's receiving from an unaffiliated state on a scan list is the better way to go.

I'm unsure if the original ASTRO 9600 firmware (R06.72) is capable of true NAS.

 

[knockoffham]

IIRC, Motorola implemented this feature early into the ASTRO25 radios because users scanning both conventional and trunked personalities in the same scanlist would be constantly affiliating and unaffiliating from the system every time a channel grant was broadcast and the scan delay timer expired, and it was overloading the system. P25 can only output 40 single TSBKs per second, and even less on a multi-block system, so having the datastream saturated with unit registration requests and the subscribers walking over each other is a recipe for disaster.

They found out quickly that only affiliating on PTT when it's receiving from an unaffiliated state on a scan list is the better way to go.

I'm unsure if the original ASTRO 9600 firmware (R06.72) is capable of true NAS.

Ah, makes sense. Interesting. Now I'm wondering if I could hex edit Astro 25 so that you wouldn't have to generate a system key to set up true non-affiliate scan making it less potentially illegal. Probably not a rabbit hole I'd go down soon if any time though because I'm happy enough with janky conventional scanning and using actual scanners.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Honestly that hack is on the short list of "holy grail" hacks. If you could figure that one out you would be a hero to many.

 

[K2NEC]

Hacking the software violates Motorolas terms which you accepted when installing so you're still breaking a rule somewhere

 

[knockoffham]

Hacking the software violates Motorolas terms which you accepted when installing so you're still breaking a rule somewhere

Oops, yeah. Well it still is better than generating unauthorized system keys.

 

[knockoffham]

Honestly that hack is on the short list of "holy grail" hacks. If you could figure that one out you would be a hero to many.

I'll file it away with my long list of future radio projects.

 

[knockoffham]

I figured out how to set up true non affiliate scan without generating a system key on a $20 XTS2500 that arrived locked down with advanced system keys. I did spend a day neglecting more important things to get this done. So it turns out it can be done, but it was kind of complicated and contains some steps that cannot be mentioned on RadioReference, and it does violate Motorola software agreements. When I have time I might restore this radio to being a brick, or buy another, just to redo the process and put it on YouTube.

Also, I did it with 64 bit Windows 11. Ironically my Windows 2000 computer was having communication issues with the radio.