Why is out of band transmit illegal? (was: Stupid question)

[Token]

That list is horribly out of date, at least for Yaesu. Perhaps that's just as well as we shouldn't be encouraging modifying radios for out-of-band transmit.

That is a very US centric view point.

Other nations do not necessarily have the same regulations as the US does with regards to certified equipment. Other nations do not necessarily have the same allocations for ham bands as the US does.

What I am saying is that what might be out of band or illegal in the US may not be in other locations. International radio manufacturers would probably like to make a minimum number of variations to simplify the production process and maximize profit. To design radios for ONLY the US market would probably drive up the cost of gear to people in the US. Radios that are easily modified for operation outside the ham bands might be more salable in some nations than ones rigidly fixed to only ham bands.

On top of all of that, it is NOT up to the radio gear to be legal, it is up to the amateur operator to be legal. That is why our gear sold in the US (with a few exceptions) does not have to be certificated for Part 97 use. Prior to CPU driven radios ALL ham radio gear was capable of operation outside the ham bands as delivered from the maker, and it was up to you the operator to know what you could or could not do, and to develop good operating practices so that you were legal.

T!

 

[WB8TCR]

A good point, however the issue with that is that the rule is in Part 97. If it was intended for emergencies and for anyone to use, it would be under Part 2, maybe somewhere else. Since it is specifically mentioned under Part 97, that is where many of us believe it only applies. If it was meant to apply under different services (part 80, part 90, part 95) then the FCC could have put a similar rule under those parts.

If you do look into Part 2, there is a rule regarding this, and it's quite specific.

Thanks for that. I will look into Part 2 and see what it says. I'm still curious to see if RapidCharger gets a response on this issue from the FCC. At the risk of being redundant, historically the Part 97 rule made sense to me in my understanding/interpretation of it. I once was naive enough to believe that laws, rules and regulations were straightforward too.

I'm not sure if it was you or another poster(s) who mentioned in this thread that amateur radio operators have been prosecuted for OOB transmissions, apparently in this context of emergency communications. I tried to Google this and didn't come up with anything. It's probably my lack of Google Fu but am wondering if you (or others) might provide some links to these cases, so I might better understand what these cases were about.

Sounds like the FCC is overdue to reword that particular clause in Part 97 to clarify it if the literal meaning is not the current intent.

 

[WB8TCR]

On top of all of that, it is NOT up to the radio gear to be legal, it is up to the amateur operator to be legal.

Well said. I read a few posts in this thread that bemoaned the fact that there were now inexpensive easily available transceivers that could be used on multiple frequency allocations. I understand the consternation from those who have experienced illegal transmission on their frequencies, though the availability of the unit is really not the issue IMO, but rather the illegal use by some. I'm old (fashioned) enough to believe that amateur operators should know better and be held to a higher standard. While Amazon has made these units more easily available and less expensive to the masses, the fact remains they are still illegal for unlicensed individuals to operate, in other words to transmit upon, just like they have always been. Better upfront info by Amazon (and others) would be helpful in this regard. Those who would disregard the legality of the use of such units are in no different position than they were decades ago, long before cheap Chinese transceivers and the internet marketplace.

 

[N8OHU]

That is a very US centric view point.

Other nations do not necessarily have the same regulations as the US does with regards to certified equipment. Other nations do not necessarily have the same allocations for ham bands as the US does.

What I am saying is that what might be out of band or illegal in the US may not be in other locations. International radio manufacturers would probably like to make a minimum number of variations to simplify the production process and maximize profit. To design radios for ONLY the US market would probably drive up the cost of gear to people in the US. Radios that are easily modified for operation outside the ham bands might be more salable in some nations than ones rigidly fixed to only ham bands.

On top of all of that, it is NOT up to the radio gear to be legal, it is up to the amateur operator to be legal. That is why our gear sold in the US (with a few exceptions) does not have to be certificated for Part 97 use. Prior to CPU driven radios ALL ham radio gear was capable of operation outside the ham bands as delivered from the maker, and it was up to you the operator to know what you could or could not do, and to develop good operating practices so that you were legal.

T!

I'm not so sure of that; if HF gear had a integrated general coverage receiver, yes, it may have been possible to transmit out of band, but separate transmitter and receiver and homebrew equipment generally did not enable such to happen. Also, the North American market is about the only ome that has uniform splits for repeaters, so it's the about only market where radios are sold with automatic repeater split capabilities. And, if I'm not mistaken, we have the largest allocations for 2 meters and 70 centimeters as well.

 

[MTS2000des]

On top of all of that, it is NOT up to the radio gear to be legal, it is up to the amateur operator to be legal. !

This, I put it in bold for a reason. It is the understatement of the century.

 

[Token]

I'm not so sure of that; if HF gear had a integrated general coverage receiver, yes, it may have been possible to transmit out of band, but separate transmitter and receiver and homebrew equipment generally did not enable such to happen.

I am sure of it, essentially ALL commercially available ham gear was capable of operation outside the allocated ham bands prior to CPU or PLL driven gear hitting main stream. Often just as taken out of the original packing box and requiring no modification.

Pick any of them and look, the majority will work on "illegal", for ham operation, frequencies. You will find far more that do than that don't.

For example, take the Yaesu FT-101, any flavor. The VFO tuning range was about 580 kHz wide for every band selection. That meant if you selected the 40 meter band you could tune from about 6960 kHz up to about 7540 kHz. When the 101 was introduced in 1971 the 40 meter band was from 7000 to 7300 kHz, so almost half of the tuning range of the VFO was outside the legal band. And as delivered from the factory every selected band on that radio (except 10B and 10C) allowed you to tune outside a legal ham band to some extent.

And when talking about separates, take for example the Hallicrafters HT-18 transmitter. In the 40 meter band you could tune from 6800 to 7450 kHz.

And for most of these one simple plug in crystal change would put the radio on any freq you wanted. For my Collins KWM-2 I have the factory available CP-1 crystal pack. No modifications necessary, just open the access door, unplug the crystal for the band you want to change, and plug in the crystal for the range you want covered. This allows pretty much unlimited coverage from 3400 kHz to 30000 kHz. But even without changing crystals, the KWM-2 would operate outside the band edges for hams as delivered.

It is hard to find a radio that would not tune and transmit outside allocated ham bands to some extent.

Home brew gear often had similar capability, if it was not rock bound. And if rock bound then just plug in whatever crystal you wanted, within reason.

Also, the North American market is about the only ome that has uniform splits for repeaters, so it's the about only market where radios are sold with automatic repeater split capabilities. And, if I'm not mistaken, we have the largest allocations for 2 meters and 70 centimeters as well.

Not sure what the split of repeaters has to do with frequency coverage. Or what our 2 meter and 70 cm allocations have to do with the fact that it is legal in some nations to use modified ham radios on frequencies outside ham bands.

But, the allocations for 2 and 70 are good examples of WHY a radio should be modifiable. The factory needs the option of configuring one radio chassis for multiple regions of use, so they do not need separate designs for each nation. This ease of configuration for the maker also turns into ease of modification for the end user.

T!

 

[rapidcharger]

For those who are waiting, still no response received yet but it has only been exactly one month as of today and I did address my letter to a specific person who is probably really busy.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

At the risk of being the one to deliver the first blow to a dead animal, I'd like to say the following:

I've been thinking about posting this for a while, and now I've decided to do so.

This is a country that loves rules and regulations and laws, but not necessarily "Justice, Wisdom, Courage, and Moderation". That being said, if you want to be a hero, do it. Don't expect accolades, cheering, safety, rules to protect you, and a parade. The definition of heroism, is doing the thing that needs to be done, when it needs to be done, without regard for personal comfort or safety. So if you need to save a life, do what needs to be done: Break into a police car, steal a box of Band-Aids, or transmit out of band. But remember, "No good deed ever goes unpunished".

For what it's worth, you, yes, I'm taking to YOU, will NEVER have as the only means of communication, a modified ham radio, that just so happens to have the repeater offsets and PL tones of the local police department already programmed into it. Not gonna happen. And if it did, you won't be hailed as a hero, you'll be considered a weirdo and a pain in the @$$.

Finally, if you want to transmit on public safety frequencies, GO BECOME A COP. It's not that hard. Why ever whacker wants to have some convoluted excuse for using someone else's frequency is beyond me.



Delta

 

[Voyager]

Interesting. So someone who uses a ham radio to monitor PS is a "weirdo and a pain in the @$$".

Also interesting that a radio won't be the only means of communications. I've been in areas with no cell service. The only radios that worked were my PS radio and ham radio. As most people don't carry PS radios, no cell service would seem to leave the ham radio as the only source. What am I missing in your theory?

 

[N8OHU]

No, it's the ones that insist it's their right to modify those radios TO TRANSMIT ON PUBLIC SERVICE FREQUENCIES that fit that description.

 

[SCPD]

The need to be able to tx on ps freqs is gone.
Years ago, before there were cellphones, and traffic was far and few between, I had the mutual aid and intercity freq programmed in my 2M mobile "just in case". Never used it, and it's been years since I had a radio programmed like that.

Let's face it, even if you did program ps freqs in your rig, by the time you made contact with the dispatcher, 3 people have already called the psap by phone.

 

[rapidcharger]

The need to be able to tx on ps freqs is gone.
Years ago, before there were cellphones, and traffic was far and few between, I had the mutual aid and intercity freq programmed in my 2M mobile "just in case". Never used it, and it's been years since I had a radio programmed like that.

Let's face it, even if you did program ps freqs in your rig, by the time you made contact with the dispatcher, 3 people have already called the psap by phone.

You are completely unaware of just how little this country is actually covered by telephones.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Interesting. So someone who uses a ham radio to monitor PS is a "weirdo and a pain in the @$$".

Nothing in my post had anything whatsoever to do with monitoring. Nothing.

Anyone who is not in public service, transmitting on public service frequencies, will not be thought of as cool by the licensed users of the frequency.

Anyone breaking into my truck to steal my trauma kit to save someone who just got hit by a car, is not going to be considered cool by me. I might not whoop his donkey, but I'll damn sure wonder if that was really his only option, and then I'll expect him to fix my window.

Bottom line, stop thinking that someday you'll save the world because you have modded ham gear. Won't happen.

I have modded ham gear, and I would sure as hell never transmit on PS frequencies. There are Marine Band, GMRS, CB, MURS, and Amateur frequencies, cell phones, sending people for help, and carrier pigeons, Hell, even the local concrete company frequencies, that would all be a better way to summon help.

I don't understand why people (ahem, some ham radio operators) are always trying to find ways to impersonate cops. Mind-Boggling. :blink:




Delta

 

[rapidcharger]

Nothing in my post had anything whatsoever to do with monitoring. Nothing.

Anyone who is not in public service, transmitting on public service frequencies, will not be thought of as cool by the licensed users of the frequency.

Anyone breaking into my truck to steal my trauma kit to save someone who just got hit by a car, is not going to be considered cool by me. I might not whoop his donkey, but I'll damn sure wonder if that was really his only option, and then I'll expect him to fix my window.

Bottom line, stop thinking that someday you'll save the world because you have modded ham gear. Won't happen.

I have modded ham gear, and I would sure as hell never transmit on PS frequencies. There are Marine Band, GMRS, CB, MURS, and Amateur frequencies, cell phones, sending people for help, and carrier pigeons, Hell, even the local concrete company frequencies, that would all be a better way to summon help.

I don't understand why people (ahem, some ham radio operators) are always trying to find ways to impersonate cops. Mind-Boggling. :blink:




Delta

Am I really the only one who has ventured more than 5 miles from the interstate?
I just spent the last hour trying to find a campground in flat treeless Ohio to stay at that has cell phone coverage.
You would be surprised at how much of the country is a radio and telephone dead zone. You don't have anyone listening on the citizens bands, or marine. About the only thing you might have is a frequency or two for public safety. This isn't necessarily about playing randy rescue. Being in a dead zone is a real common scenario. There are large swaths without it. If you can walk out great. But that's not always an option either.


Sent from my iPad Air using The Uncarrier.

 

[N8OHU]

Am I really the only one who has ventured more than 5 miles from the interstate?
I just spent the last hour trying to find a campground in flat treeless Ohio to stay at that has cell phone coverage.
You would be surprised at how much of the country is a radio and telephone dead zone. You don't have anyone listening on the citizens bands, or marine. About the only thing you might have is a frequency or two for public safety. This isn't necessarily about playing randy rescue. Being in a dead zone is a real common scenario. There are large swaths without it. If you can walk out great. But that's not always an option either.


Sent from my iPad Air using The Uncarrier.

Quit being a smart aft and realize that your modded or other radios may well be useless when you need them most, since many Public Safety systems have moved to 800 MHz and even if they did retain the previous equipment, there may not be anyone monitoring it. Hams have plenty of ways to get messages through that don't involve using someone else's frequency allocations, so learn to use them.

 

[Voyager]

Yea - you're supposed to try calling on any ham simplex frequencies until you reach someone. If it takes an hour, what's the big deal? It's only a life, and time is not critical in such cases.

(sorry for the Niagara Falls sarcasm for those who were drenched)

 

[N8OHU]

Yea - you're supposed to try calling on any ham simplex frequencies until you reach someone. If it takes an hour, what's the big deal? It's only a life, and time is not critical in such cases.

(sorry for the Niagara Falls sarcasm for those who were drenched)

If they're that bad, getting help via radio should be the last thing on your mind, not the first.

 

[Voyager]

No, I'm pretty sure getting help to them ASAP is the priority.
(or was your post sarcasm, too?)

 

[kb9mwr]

I hate to keep this thread alive, however I have had a use for a modified ham radio that I never see mentioned. For test equipment purposes.

Back in the late 90's I was trying to get some POCSAG pagers going on ham frequencies using a DOS program. Before I was going to mess with re-crystaling the pagers I wanted to see if the computer interface was working and would set the pagers off on their existing commercial frequencies. So I used my modified ham rig into a dummy load on the commercial freq to verify operation.

A few other times I needed that out of band transmit for similar purposes. One was testing a frequency trippler from some ham fest junk I picked up. Other times just as a quick marker generator when I was looking at spectrum analyzer.

I will say that I do feel the type acceptance rules are kind of dated... and if you think forward, like SDR, then there really are a lot of stupid rules on the books. But that wasn't my point.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. (Keep your eye on the sparrow.)

Bottom line, most of the wherefors and whatifs in this thread and others like it are attempts to justify breaking clearly written laws. Laws only control the behavior of the law-abiding. Criminals don't care, and yes, if you purposely break the law, then you are a criminal.

If you actually see yourself as Randy Rescue, then get the training. Your CPR and first aid skills will be of much more value in a true emergency than your radio.