• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

    We've noticed a huge increase in rants and negative posts that revolve around agencies going to encryption due to the broadcasting of scanner audio on the internet. It's now worn out and continues to be the same recycled rants. These rants hijack the threads and derail the conversation. They no longer have a place anywhere on this forum other than in the designated threads in the Rants forum in the Tavern.

    If you violate these guidelines your post will be deleted without notice and an infraction will be issued. We are not against discussion of this issue. You just need to do it in the right place. For example:
    https://forums.radioreference.com/rants/224104-official-thread-live-audio-feeds-scanners-wait-encryption.html

Denver Chooses Motorola for P25 Phase II System, Public Safety will be Encrypted

Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
2,007
Location
Greeley, CO
#81
Right however......

They have opted to keep the transition simple by going this direction.

It is easier to setup programming the over 1K+ radios for public safety with ENC enabled on all groups/radios/consoles rather than a mix of some are and some are not. Not to mention that different users will have different set's of groups dependent on what their needs/access levels are. Hence my codeplug comment in an earlier post in this thread.

I do see why they chose this approach as far as the configuration of the radio system and radios in the field.

Unfortunately it results in the current debate over the impending changes that will occur.

.
 

abqscan

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2,582
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AOA
#82
I disagree that this option kept it any more simple. They can load encryption on every public safety radio just like Aurora does and select which codeplug to zap a radio with.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
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#83
I am looking at this as an intial system launch having to program a boatload of radios from the start. There are many ways to look
at this and this was one that came to mind.

The new Denver system just went live a several weeks ago. Aurora had a transistion between both systems for a period of time to work out any issues in the field.

If the intended launch date of 3/18 does not change I expect they will do as they did in 1992 of pulling the plug on the old system and a complete cutover to the new system with no fallback.

We can agree to disagree the reality is this is the path DPD/DFD chose and whether they chose to change in the future we will see.

Remember that DCFIRE went this route and it took a major incident to implement returning to digital clear. Hopefully we will not see
a similiar situation here to implement a change of policy.

.
 

Spitfire8520

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Messages
1,752
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#84
Right however......

They have opted to keep the transition simple by going this direction.

It is easier to setup programming the over 1K+ radios for public safety with ENC enabled on all groups/radios/consoles rather than a mix of some are and some are not. Not to mention that different users will have different set's of groups dependent on what their needs/access levels are. Hence my codeplug comment in an earlier post in this thread.

I do see why they chose this approach as far as the configuration of the radio system and radios in the field.

Unfortunately it results in the current debate over the impending changes that will occur.

.
I have to agree with Erik on this one, especially when talking about the latest Motorola CPS. Going in either direction is not any more easier or harder, those are very much excuses. They have to flash all the radio with the same encryption keys when programming, and they will have to create a codeplug template for each of the radio groups where they will define what zone and knob position will be encrypted with that encryption key that will already be programmed onto the radio.

Once the codeplug templates have been set, that is it. They apply the template and flash the many radios, nothing more and nothing less. The time takes to setup these codeplug templates that will be used for thousands of radios is insignificant compared to the actual flashing of all the radios if they are doing it all by hand.
 

greenthumb

Colorado DB Administrator
Database Admin
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#85
The folks over at the Denver EEB are more than capable of managing mixed-mode templates.
 

Spitfire8520

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#86
The mass reprogramming has begun for the city services users. This week saw the full transition of the Colorado Convention Center and Denver Museum of Nature & Science. As of this post, it looks like Solid Waste, Street Maintenance, and Traffic Engineering are in the middle of transitioning.

These are complete cutovers with only several days of overlap between the new system and MARC. Once it has been completed, the talkgroups on MARC are no longer affiliated to the site and carried over the air. The city services talkgroups have changed and have been identified. Just waiting to see if anything else appears today before making a submission.
 

stevecubfan

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thornton colorado
#87
The mass reprogramming has begun for the city services users. This week saw the full transition of the Colorado Convention Center and Denver Museum of Nature & Science. As of this post, it looks like Solid Waste, Street Maintenance, and Traffic Engineering are in the middle of transitioning.

These are complete cutovers with only several days of overlap between the new system and MARC. Once it has been completed, the talkgroups on MARC are no longer affiliated to the site and carried over the air. The city services talkgroups have changed and have been identified. Just waiting to see if anything else appears today before making a submission.
 
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
38
#89
Folks, this thread isn't about if encryption is good or not. While it might feel good to vent here, please use your energy to communicate with Denver's City Council and public safety leaders.
I have emailed my city councilman a letter for the public safety committee that the new radio system and how it could put the public
in danger and this also hurts the amateur radio community and mutual aid agreements and also fire and ems contracts with the cities of Sheridan Glendale Englewood and Skyline and Interop
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
2,007
Location
Greeley, CO
#90
Latest loggings for Site 2 Mt Morrison:

FileVersion:8
-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only. With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID : 9C5
System Name : DENVER WIDE COVERAGE
WACN : BEE00
Tower Number (Decimal): 1-2
Tower Number (Hex) : T0102
Tower Description : MT MORRISON
Control Capabilities : Data,Voice,Registration
Flavor : Phase 2
Call Sign(s) : KNNR200
Timestamp : Fri Mar 15 17:18:53 2019

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,1
02,851.01250,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2
03,762.00625,0.01250,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.01250,2

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Channel,Input Frequency(/Slot),Input Explicit(1/0),Hit Count
"00-0549","vdi",854.43750,"00-0549",809.43750,0,74
"00-0677","vd",855.23750,"00-0677",810.23750,0,80
"00-0717","vd",855.48750,"00-0717",810.48750,0,86
"00-0797","vd",855.98750,"00-0797",810.98750,1,94
"00-0833","vd",856.21250,"00-0833",856.21250,1,96
"00-0917","avd",856.73750,"00-0917",811.73750,0,0
"00-0981","avd",857.13750,"00-0981",812.13750,0,0
"00-1233","avd",858.71250,"00-1233",813.71250,0,0
"00-1321","ci",859.26250,"00-1321",814.26250,0,0
"02-0548","v",854.43750/0,"02-0548",809.43750/0,1,39
"02-0549","v",854.43750/1,"02-0549",854.43750/1,1,38
"02-0676","v",855.23750/0,"02-0676",855.23750/0,1,28
"02-0677","v",855.23750/1,"02-0677",810.23750/1,0,28
"02-0716","v",855.48750/0,"02-0716",810.48750/0,0,29
"02-0717","v",855.48750/1,"02-0717",810.48750/1,0,30
"02-0796","v",855.98750/0,"02-0796",855.98750/0,1,35
"02-0797","v",855.98750/1,"02-0797",810.98750/1,0,32
"02-0832","v",856.21250/0,"02-0832",811.21250/0,0,32
"02-0833","v",856.21250/1,"02-0833",811.21250/1,1,37
"02-0916","v",856.73750/0,"02-0916",811.73750/0,1,0
"02-0917","v",856.73750/1,"02-0917",811.73750/1,1,0
"02-0980","v",857.13750/0,"02-0980",857.13750/0,1,0
"02-0981","v",857.13750/1,"02-0981",857.13750/1,1,0
"02-1232","v",858.71250/0,"02-1232",858.71250/0,1,0
"02-1233","v",858.71250/1,"02-1233",858.71250/1,1,0

-Neighbors
#Format: TowerID,TowerIDHex,System ID,Channel,Frequency,Tower Name
101,"T0101",9c5,"00-1393",859.71250,""

Also noted today that DPD and DFD Talk Groups are now being denied on the Mt Morrison site.

So far DPD Talk Groups are not the same as the ones noted on the Harris system. They start at 35050.

DFD Talk Groups match those noted on the Harris system.

.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
2,007
Location
Greeley, CO
#92
And your point is?

Did that situation not create a reaction that resulted in change of policy by DCFIRE?

What is happening here is DFD bought into the changing between modes was difficult and they needed to be totally secure for everything in order to communicate with DPD. Which is incorrect.

Again this has been an ongoing situation where the city of Denver has been on a mission to control access to public safety communications since 1992. They finally have what they have sought for years. I doubt they will cave.

.
 
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
38
#93
And your point is?

Did that situation not create a reaction that resulted in change of policy by DCFIRE?

What is happening here is DFD bought into the changing between modes was difficult and they needed to be totally secure for everything in order to communicate with DPD. Which is incorrect.

Again this has been an ongoing situation where the city of Denver has been on a mission to control access to public safety communications since 1992. They finally have what they have sought for years. I doubt they will cave.

.
There is a bill in the house to limit encryption and is HB 19-1235
 
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
38
#96
And your point is?

Did that situation not create a reaction that resulted in change of policy by DCFIRE?

What is happening here is DFD bought into the changing between modes was difficult and they needed to be totally secure for everything in order to communicate with DPD. Which is incorrect.

Again this has been an ongoing situation where the city of Denver has been on a mission to control access to public safety communications since 1992. They finally have what they have sought for years. I doubt they will cave.

.
EMS caved and are no longer encrypted
 

Spitfire8520

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Messages
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Colorado
#97
EMS caved and are no longer encrypted
Saying that they caved is very likely incorrect and it would be extremely premature to celebrate it as some type of victory. The only agencies that ever confirmed that they were going to encrypt was DPD and DFD. I made an assumption that Denver Health was to be encrypted because PD and FD were encrypted, but that assumption turned out to be entirely incorrect. The Denver Health talkgroups were never been encrypted during the testing stages, so it is very unlikely they were going to encrypt in the first place.

This would be an example of why I caution against making assumptions when identifying anything and submitting it to the database. Quite often those assumptions turn out to be incorrect.

It certainly is very strange that Denver Health is able to communicate fine with DPD and DFD while having their talkgroups unencrypted. It is almost like DFD's unloaded a bunch of BS when they said that "it was simpler to encrypt everything." I guess that just means that DFD is not quite as radio savvy as their paramedic counterparts.
 
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