UNDERGROUND BURIED EARTH ANTENNAS

[Sheepdog777]

.

Want a very simple, interesting, competitor to all this Electromagnetic underground communication ?

Know what this is and how it works?

---------Grins



View attachment 138892

Black Cloud Mine


Lauri

Huh, looks like the Hydrogen Bottles for Proton Generation for the CERN Large Hadron Collider... However, I don't think this is the case lol.

I am going to go strictly off deductive reasoning here...

Starting with your statement of "Competitor to all this Electromagnetic underground communication"...

It's apparently non-electromagnetic, so it must be mechanical. Seeing what appears to be a compressed gas in the cylinders leads me to believe it is either a non-flammable gas or liquid, because fires and mines aren't cool. Even radios need to be intrinsically safe around Flammable/Explosive Hazmat, would assume the safety precautions be taken for this system. Since is either a liquid or a gas then it must be mechanical, of which Sound is a mechanical wave, thus, it must be sound related. Physics 101 teaches us that sound travels fastest in solids, then liquids, then air. So it most likely is acoustically related...

Like prcguy said, Air Horns?

Brown Note Cavitation Device?

o7

 

[Sheepdog777]

We used to pull jeep jokes on youngsters, had them collect "Barometric Air Samples" for the Weather Squadron... or test the Seismic Sensors under the Hardstand Restricted Area Deadly Force Authorized Signs painted on the concrete.... LOL

 

[MUTNAV]

Huh, looks like the Hydrogen Bottles for Proton Generation for the CERN Large Hadron Collider... However, I don't think this is the case lol.

I am going to go strictly off deductive reasoning here...

Starting with your statement of "Competitor to all this Electromagnetic underground communication"...

It's apparently non-electromagnetic, so it must be mechanical. Seeing what appears to be a compressed gas in the cylinders leads me to believe it is either a non-flammable gas or liquid, because fires and mines aren't cool. Even radios need to be intrinsically safe around Flammable/Explosive Hazmat, would assume the safety precautions be taken for this system. Since is either a liquid or a gas then it must be mechanical, of which Sound is a mechanical wave, thus, it must be sound related. Physics 101 teaches us that sound travels fastest in solids, then liquids, then air. So it most likely is acoustically related...

Like prcguy said, Air Horns?

Brown Note Cavitation Device?

o7

Or tubes that carry canisters to carry messages. Like in banks (or all over new youk city in the past, maybe even nowdays).

The first subway there had to be identified as a messenger tube that was something like 8' in diameter to get a permit.

Thanks
Joel

 

[Sheepdog777]

Or tubes that carry canisters to carry messages. Like in banks (or all over new youk city in the past, maybe even nowdays).

The first subway there had to be identified as a messenger tube that was something like 8' in diameter to get a permit.

Thanks
Joel

I've always loved those. So satisfying to watch for some reason. Given the copper tubing running from the bottoms with apparent Valve knobs, I'm guessing Pneumatic or Mechanical...

 

[MUTNAV]

I've always loved those. So satisfying to watch for some reason. Given the copper tubing running from the bottoms with apparent Valve knobs, I'm guessing Pneumatic or Mechanical...

Or a pressurized cable system? Sometimes (actually frequently) buried cables would be pressurized with nitrogen to keep them dry... A hidden spy thing in Germany worked that way, the (I assume CIA) wanted to cut into and monitor the wire communications, but the east German lines were pressurized, so they had to deal with that aspect as well.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

I've always loved those. So satisfying to watch for some reason. Given the copper tubing running from the bottoms with apparent Valve knobs, I'm guessing Pneumatic or Mechanical...

Apparently they are still used and sold...

Industries We Serve | Aerocom USA

Aerocom is the global leader in pneumatic tube systems for a variety of industries: retail, logistics, industrial, government, and more.

www.aerocomusa.com

Thanks
Joel

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

Some good guess's but this is far more simplistic.

Once upon a time I consulted on a project looking at using ultra low radio frequencies for underground communications. My contributions were minor, mostly labour, --but since many of the tests were in deep caves, it was fun.



What we want to see was if ELF signals propagate well enuff thru rock over burden to be useful as a communications medium in places like mines. The experiment used large resonate loop antennas tuned to a 8-10 KHz range with pulsed transmitters that could generate quite a bit of power. They worked quite well, transmitting thru hundreds of feet of over burden, but we knew from the out set the large antennas (~6 feet in diameter) made them impractical for any sort of practical use.

Ok, now back to those blue cylinders---

In a deep mine, how do you reliably communicate to the miners-- especially in the event of an emergency ?
Fire is a number-one fear in a mine.... men can be easily killed by carbon monoxide if they are not notified immediately and evacuated quickly. But a crew, far down in a distant drift has no telephones-- radio doesn't work; communications is often as fast as you can walk--- its an isolated, hostile world few who have not experienced it can envision.

So how do you let the mining crews know something is very dangerous wrong and its time to get out ?
Not by radio--- but by smell.

Those cylinders contain methyl mercaptan, a gas that smells like skunk. Since all the workings in a mine are by compressed air, this gas released into the compressors quickly spreads thru out the underground.
Smell it and Leave-- fast !

Elegant, no ?

Lauri

 

[G7RUX]

So, propagation *within* a mine at UHF or even VHF will be by reflections along the shafts as I’m sure you’re aware.

At HF, especially the lower bands but not exclusively, the ground is not anywhere near perfect. The tuning of the antenna is a bit weird but they can work very well and present low receive noise as the ground permittivity seems to lead to a rduction in the levels of local, e-field noise.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

A little aside to underground antennas ----

In the US underground radio (and I am speaking of truly underground radio as opposed to the pirate-y stuff) - is virtually unregulated (see Part 15.211) As long as the radiation does not exceed so many microvolts above ground you can do as you please....any frequency, any power levels !

This is kind'a intriguing- not being a geophysical scientist I can only surmise at the propagation effects rock strata may play--- mineral deposits, aquifers, etc........ I do know from my cave-radio-experimenting days that there can be considerable attenuations......but we were using pretty Mickey Mouse low frequency, low power'd junk. What if we had used proper antennas and respectable power ?

That was years ago and I have never re-visited underground radio since-- not even a literature search ---so I throw it out here.

Ok Guys, I can take it-- go ahead and shoot down this balloon


Lauri



_________________________________________________________________________________________


But meanwhile just envision a CQ or ARRL underground radio contest

.

 

[MUTNAV]

A little aside to underground antennas ----

In the US underground radio (and I am speaking of truly underground radio as opposed to the pirate-y stuff) - is virtually unregulated (see Part 15.211) As long as the radiation does not exceed so many microvolts above ground you can do as you please....any frequency, any power levels !

This is kind'a intriguing- not being a geophysical scientist I can only surmise at the propagation effects rock strata may play--- mineral deposits, aquifers, etc........ I do know from my cave-radio-experimenting days that there can be considerable attenuations......but we were using pretty Mickey Mouse low frequency, low power'd junk. What if we had used proper antennas and respectable power ?

That was years ago and I have never re-visited underground radio since-- not even a literature search ---so I throw it out here.

Ok Guys, I can take it-- go ahead and shoot down this balloon


Lauri

View attachment 139256

_________________________________________________________________________________________


But meanwhile just envision a CQ or ARRL underground radio contest

.

A hobby balloon?


Anyway, Even the VLF transmiiter antennas for WWIII communications weren't that big, just buried giant loops, (trying to find a picture on the web and coudn't....)

For anyone interested, Carlsbad caverns NM , seems like a great place to experiment, I'm not even close to the area anymore, my interest was more of a short range system though,for divers (vs acoustic systems), but I suppose checking them out in a cave would work also... I thought there might be a calling for something like that, but maybe not (if it doesn't have Wi-Fi and bluetooth, I don't think anyone would care anymore).

I'm thinking of Ferrite transmit loops, I know there is some literature out there on it, but my guess is that would be the way to go.


The other job, would be to find underground voids, but a system would have to be able to tell the difference in attenuation between rock and air in a radar type of arrangement.

Thanks
Joel

 

[VA3BBY]

Very interesting Ryan, such a unique way to have a ginormous reflector at your disposal. Would be perfect for zenith receiving. When I first got my 2m some 30 plus years ago I buried copper radials at the base of my tower but never thought to make an antenna out of mother earth. Back in those days height was might. I don’t know why this would be a burr in anyone’s butt. Thanks for posting this interesting topic. Someone needs to do a youtube on this.

 

[Sheepdog777]

A little aside to underground antennas ----

In the US underground radio (and I am speaking of truly underground radio as opposed to the pirate-y stuff) - is virtually unregulated (see Part 15.211) As long as the radiation does not exceed so many microvolts above ground you can do as you please....any frequency, any power levels !

This is kind'a intriguing- not being a geophysical scientist I can only surmise at the propagation effects rock strata may play--- mineral deposits, aquifers, etc........ I do know from my cave-radio-experimenting days that there can be considerable attenuations......but we were using pretty Mickey Mouse low frequency, low power'd junk. What if we had used proper antennas and respectable power ?

That was years ago and I have never re-visited underground radio since-- not even a literature search ---so I throw it out here.

Ok Guys, I can take it-- go ahead and shoot down this balloon


Lauri

View attachment 139256

_________________________________________________________________________________________


But meanwhile just envision a CQ or ARRL underground radio contest

.

Now I'm not saying one can simply plug their transmission lines into the ground, since the Earth itself is a giant conductor, and simply talk across the country telephonically using the skin effect which I believe are what are referred to as "ground waves"... If there's one thing that's certain, if it doesn't make money or can be controlled to do the same, then it's suppressed. I just think it's a whole other level of possible experimentation. I guess as a police officer of several decades I'm hardwired to follow the evidence wherever it leads. There's plenty of evidence that there are possible applications for literal Underground Radio.

Having worked in the Intelligence world, things get murky really quick when it involves coveted "sources & methods". So, if WWII spies could use underground antennas for covert operations and nullify/mitigate direction finding equipment then surely, it's all bunk, right? Surely when I talk on VHF/UHF freqs from underground facilities using buried antennas to talk to Nuclear Triad aircraft (TACAMO, E-6B/NAOC, E-4B/Other) since it's out of the normal Ham's experience, then is guess "Muh Software Models" rule the day. Did a little couple hundred million dollar procurement for the DOD for directed energy threat detection to when all the experts said you could only produce X-Rays with a big ass radioactive source. I though Huh, well then why is this one company producing both Traditional and Backscatter X-Rays with an electrical source emitting the same radiation that a cigarettes puts out? I lit a cigarette and walked away… Latter on I was scanning mail for the White House and Congress, building Organic Compound Profiles for Explosives and Narcotics, and a bunch of other cool stuff. Whatevs…

If it comes down to a common medium of transmission such as Air to Air, then why not Ground to Ground? Polarization and geometry matter... and isn't it funny that when a Large Loop antenna goes to Ground that it flips polarization from horizontal to a vertical column? Well, if ground radials improve the Tx/Rx of a Vertically Polarized Antenna to X degree, then isn't it really acting as an electronic mirror or is something else going on? I stirred the pot quite a bit with my other posts and enjoy the responses and some ribbing from some, yet only a small few actually read anything I wrote, and even fewer actually went into the linked resources I posted.

So, one of the ancient maxims of the forefather/mother of our sciences was that of "As Above So Below", so why not flip the process from what we all know to work on its head and try it underground? Would driving two "frequency resonant" ground rods as radiators work as a given distance? As Underground Verticals? I mean a Monopole always has the invisible mirror of it under the ground, right? Why not make the invisible part above ground? Perhaps then by electronic control the resonance could be electronically adjusted like an invisible screwdriver antenna? Or is it the ground radials working the magic along the Skin Depth of the Earth itself, as giant conductor? The old Telegraphy grounding discoveries would seem to indicate that there's something more to the story.

I mean if Earth Return Telegraphy works for Morse Coding with a single wire system, then is this also not why ground radials "close the circuit" with the single wire being replaced by radio transmission? Earth-return telegraph - Wikipedia Additionally, if over 200,000 miles of Single Wire Earth Return powers most of rural Australia, then obviously the conductivity and capacitance of the earth work in the electromotive force which ALSO is the agreed upon carrier of ALL RADIO WAVES... Single-wire earth return - Wikipedia

Obviously 60 Hz AC is super low frequency, but if these penetrate and transit the earth, as well as the Ultra High Frequency Cosmic Rays/Waves at 1023 Hz, then why not everything in between? But some of these conundrums stumped some of the biggest minds, and Maxwell’s and his detractor Heaviside provided one of the fulcrums for Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Anyways, I’m just a dumb Hillbilly from Arkansas who’ll try anything once… or twice if it’s fun.

Thank you for the excellent and stimulating response Lauri!

Ryan, AE0TO

o7

 

[MUTNAV]

Now I'm not saying one can simply plug their transmission lines into the ground, since the Earth itself is a giant conductor, and simply talk across the country telephonically using the skin effect which I believe are what are referred to as "ground waves"... If there's one thing that's certain, if it doesn't make money or can be controlled to do the same, then it's suppressed. I just think it's a whole other level of possible experimentation. I guess as a police officer of several decades I'm hardwired to follow the evidence wherever it leads. There's plenty of evidence that there are possible applications for literal Underground Radio.

Having worked in the Intelligence world, things get murky really quick when it involves coveted "sources & methods". So, if WWII spies could use underground antennas for covert operations and nullify/mitigate direction finding equipment then surely, it's all bunk, right? Surely when I talk on VHF/UHF freqs from underground facilities using buried antennas to talk to Nuclear Triad aircraft (TACAMO, E-6B/NAOC, E-4B/Other) since it's out of the normal Ham's experience, then is guess "Muh Software Models" rule the day. Did a little couple hundred million dollar procurement for the DOD for directed energy threat detection to when all the experts said you could only produce X-Rays with a big ass radioactive source. I though Huh, well then why is this one company producing both Traditional and Backscatter X-Rays with an electrical source emitting the same radiation that a cigarettes puts out? I lit a cigarette and walked away… Latter on I was scanning mail for the White House and Congress, building Organic Compound Profiles for Explosives and Narcotics, and a bunch of other cool stuff. Whatevs…

If it comes down to a common medium of transmission such as Air to Air, then why not Ground to Ground? Polarization and geometry matter... and isn't it funny that when a Large Loop antenna goes to Ground that it flips polarization from horizontal to a vertical column? Well, if ground radials improve the Tx/Rx of a Vertically Polarized Antenna to X degree, then isn't it really acting as an electronic mirror or is something else going on? I stirred the pot quite a bit with my other posts and enjoy the responses and some ribbing from some, yet only a small few actually read anything I wrote, and even fewer actually went into the linked resources I posted.

So, one of the ancient maxims of the forefather/mother of our sciences was that of "As Above So Below", so why not flip the process from what we all know to work on its head and try it underground? Would driving two "frequency resonant" ground rods as radiators work as a given distance? As Underground Verticals? I mean a Monopole always has the invisible mirror of it under the ground, right? Why not make the invisible part above ground? Perhaps then by electronic control the resonance could be electronically adjusted like an invisible screwdriver antenna? Or is it the ground radials working the magic along the Skin Depth of the Earth itself, as giant conductor? The old Telegraphy grounding discoveries would seem to indicate that there's something more to the story.

I mean if Earth Return Telegraphy works for Morse Coding with a single wire system, then is this also not why ground radials "close the circuit" with the single wire being replaced by radio transmission? Earth-return telegraph - Wikipedia Additionally, if over 200,000 miles of Single Wire Earth Return powers most of rural Australia, then obviously the conductivity and capacitance of the earth work in the electromotive force which ALSO is the agreed upon carrier of ALL RADIO WAVES... Single-wire earth return - Wikipedia

Obviously 60 Hz AC is super low frequency, but if these penetrate and transit the earth, as well as the Ultra High Frequency Cosmic Rays/Waves at 1023 Hz, then why not everything in between? But some of these conundrums stumped some of the biggest minds, and Maxwell’s and his detractor Heaviside provided one of the fulcrums for Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Anyways, I’m just a dumb Hillbilly from Arkansas who’ll try anything once… or twice if it’s fun.

Thank you for the excellent and stimulating response Lauri!

Ryan, AE0TO

o7

View attachment 139300

I don't think skin effect is the same as ground wave... Usually skin effect is referring to how only the outer parts of a conductor carry most of the electrons since they are all repelled from each other and that is the area that is furthest from each other.... even DC especially at high voltages, exhibits a lot of skin effect.

Ground wave is how a radio wave interacts with the earths surface.

Regarding radials, I'm thinking (but not positive that this is the right way to look at it, that they are really just the other half of a dipole.

Thanks
Joel

 

[Sheepdog777]

I don't think skin effect is the same as ground wave... Usually skin effect is referring to how only the outer parts of a conductor carry most of the electrons since they are all repelled from each other and that is the area that is furthest from each other.... even DC especially at high voltages, exhibits a lot of skin effect.

Ground wave is how a radio wave interacts with the earths surface.

Regarding radials, I'm thinking (but not positive that this is the right way to look at it, that they are really just the other half of a dipole.

Thanks
Joel

Joel,

I truly understand where you're coming from, but understand that we live in a Holographic Universe, where the key to unlock many mysteries is Analogy.

I was referring to the Earth as a Giant Conductor, which it is...

All Antennas and Feedlines are conductors, which Tx/Rx RF via the Skin Effect, I've raised enough Cain on this topic on other posts here and on QRZ. Funny how all the experts have differing inputs... I guess that's why it's called Amateur Radio. Tesla was an Amateur... it is the "Experts" which have kept us on the Mental Plantation of dependency and consumerism once they "Shut it Down..."

It was meant more as a Proportional Analogy. Earth return telegraph worked for hundreds and thousands of miles until Electric Trolleys came along pulsing DC into the ground. Theory is great, but practical science is only done through experimentation. Stephen Hawking had a lot of mental accomplishments, but he never achieved anything of renown in temporal reality. The best laid plans can sit on a shelf for millennia without ever seeing it executed, especially after literacy and understanding have died.

We think we're so smart yet we can't replicate many of the ancient stone earth works around the world. We've theorized about how they did it for many decades, yet some Amateur tinker named Edward Leedskalnin rediscovered SOME of the practical methods back in 1920 down at Coral Castle in Florida, which... "Experts" still can't figure out, or...or.... they have and will not share it.

I thought programming a Tactical Repeater and loading NSA COMSEC Crypto was cool in my initial training for my career field, but then I got to my first base and experienced my first CDAA AN-FLR-9 Array (Elephant Cage)...

I'm just a lowly new Ham ticket with an entire successful career in the most Technical military service on the planet.

 

[VA3BBY]

I read somewhere that circular polarization needed to be used underground particularily in mines, is that still the case?

 

[krokus]

I thought programming a Tactical Repeater and loading NSA COMSEC Crypto was cool in my initial training for my career field, but then I got to my first base and experienced my first CDAA AN-FLR-9 Array (Elephant Cage)...

I'm just a lowly new Ham ticket with an entire successful career in the most Technical military service on the planet.

The good ole Wollenweber. We used to call the one on our base "The Dinosaur Cage"

 

[krokus]

Apparently they are still used and sold...

Industries We Serve | Aerocom USA

Aerocom is the global leader in pneumatic tube systems for a variety of industries: retail, logistics, industrial, government, and more.

www.aerocomusa.com

Thanks
Joel

Home Depot uses them, too. (Between the register area and the office, in the rear of the building.)

 

[TomLine]

How about 60hz CW using existing underground pipes. Still wrapping my head around the first post. Is the taos humm 60 hz or something else?

 

[WA4A]

Brings back memories of the 487L SLFCS (Survivable Low Frequency Communications System) complete with a hardened underground steerable antenna, used by SAC at Whiteman AFB where I was stationed back in the 1970s. Only very narrow band and slow Baud rate TTY and CW modes were available but groundwave reception out to several hundred miles or from the "Looking Glass" flying command post's trailing wire antenna was possible even if a nuke blanked out the ionosphere! Never heard of using HF or higher frequency underground antennas, though. We only had hardened HF verticals that could pop out of the ground after a nuke attack as well as almost indestructable UHF ground/air antennas mounted on the surface in what looked like a missile nose cone! Later, after I left the AF, I kept up my interest in LF through ham radio and experimented with some FCC Part 15, 160 to 190 kHz CW rigs through the 1980s. I used a National HRO-500 receiver with the optional LF preamp during those years.

 

[dlwtrunked]

Brings back memories of the 487L SLFCS (Survivable Low Frequency Communications System) complete with a hardened underground steerable antenna, used by SAC at Whiteman AFB where I was stationed back in the 1970s. Only very narrow band and slow Baud rate TTY and CW modes were available but groundwave reception out to several hundred miles or from the "Looking Glass" flying command post's trailing wire antenna was possible even if a nuke blanked out the ionosphere! Never heard of using HF or higher frequency underground antennas, though. We only had hardened HF verticals that could pop out of the ground after a nuke attack as well as almost indestructable UHF ground/air antennas mounted on the surface in what looked like a missile nose cone! Later, after I left the AF, I kept up my interest in LF through ham radio and experimented with some FCC Part 15, 160 to 190 kHz CW rigs through the 1980s. I used a National HRO-500 receiver with the optional LF preamp during those years.

The SAC SLFCS transmitters were at Hawes, CA and Silver Creek, NE. The *transmit* antennas were not underground. I used to decode those regularly - they used both 50 and 5 (yes 5) Baud FSK Baudot RTTY. Initially Silver Creek was 34.5 kHz but before it left the air, but later moved to 29.5 then 48.5 kHz before leaving the air. Silver Creek used 37.2 kHz. The facilities have been demolished. Around the same time, Site R, the ANCC near Ft. Ritchie, did the same type of transmission (which today we call EAMs) on 58.7 kHz. This station, though, did use an underground transmit antenna in an old water well inside Raven Rock Mtn. That ended when the well flooded. Back then I used a homebrew tube converter ahead of a E.F. Scott essentially antique stainless steel chassis 20 tube receiver with a Microcraft Baudot RTTY decoder (built from a kit). Though it was designed for only 170, 425, and 850 Hz shift FSK RTTY , the decider worked fine on the 50 Bd 50 Hz shift transmitted by the above station. To decode the 5 Bd 50 Hz shift Baudot, I used a surplussed(new) ink-paper tape recorder bought from Fair Radio Sales and hand-decoded the Baudot zeroes and ones on the paper. Splattered ink still stains the floor in what was my parents house. (No cw was used by SLFCS but the 5 Bd Baudot did sound like cw and many thought it was encrypted cw.)