Why is out of band transmit illegal? (was: Stupid question)

[mmckenna]

There's a small part of me that wishes all ham gear was made like my first amateur radio handheld. Radio Shack HTX 202. It TX/RX on only 144-148 MHz. Physically no possible way to modify it to receive, much less transmit, anywhere else. Then this out-of-band discussion would be a moot point

This is the manufacturers doing, and I think negligent on their part. MARS doesn't extend that far above the ham band. CAP uses P25 and has specifically spoken out about modified ham radios.
If the FCC really was on the ball, they'd figure out a way to stop it.
That doesn't address the radios that are already out there, or those that buy LMR radios and use them illegally. Nothing is going to stop that.

Sort of an endless argument. Those that choose to ignore the law will continue doing so, and no amount of reasoning will end that. The risk of fines/punishment isn't enough to stop it, so all this discussion isn't going to help. It's a character thing. Some people have it, some don't. Those that don't will always find a justification for doing whatever they want.

 

[EddP]

On a slightly different note, I don't know how things work in the US.

There are fly on the wall programs with rescue services (helicopter S&R etc) and quite often when they arrive on scene they struggle to find the casualty (esp fallen climbers on big cliffs). I can't see the problem with dialing in a marine vhf channel and using that to speak directly to the chopper. All of our S&R choppers are set up for marine rescue as we are such a small place with plenty of sea so marine VHF would seem appropriate until instructed otherwise. (even though marine is illegal to use when not at sea)

AFAIK there is an international agreement on the use of any comms device in life / death emergencies.

But I can see the above points on trying to talk straight to a dispatcher causing problems.

 

[WB4CS]

On a slightly different note, I don't know how things work in the US.

There are fly on the wall programs with rescue services (helicopter S&R etc) and quite often when they arrive on scene they struggle to find the casualty (esp fallen climbers on big cliffs). I can't see the problem with dialing in a marine vhf channel and using that to speak directly to the chopper. All of our S&R choppers are set up for marine rescue as we are such a small place with plenty of sea so marine VHF would seem appropriate until instructed otherwise. (even though marine is illegal to use when not at sea)

AFAIK there is an international agreement on the use of any comms device in life / death emergencies.

But I can see the above points on trying to talk straight to a dispatcher causing problems.

RE: How things work in the US. Read the entire thread, that spells it out fairly clearly.

To recap (In the US):

• Radio must be FCC certified for the frequency being used. Amateur Radio gear is not FCC certified to be used with any radio service except the Amateur Service. The rescue services you mention would have to use radios that are FCC certified for that service.
• The person must be FCC licensed to use the frequency. A US Amateur Radio license does not grant use of any frequencies outside of the Amateur Radio Service. In order to use law enforcement, rescue, aircraft, marine, etc., channels the person would have to be A) licensed by the FCC to use that channel, and B) have the proper FCC approved device for that service.
• The "life or death" emergency clause only pertains to the service that one is licensed for. An FCC licensed Amateur Radio operator can use any Amateur Radio frequency in an emergency, however an Amateur Radio license does not grant the use of non-Amateur Radio frequencies in any event or emergency. (See post in this thread where this is confirmed by FCC Enforcement Officer.)

Since you're post said you're not sure about the US laws, I'm not sure what country you're located in. It would probably be a good idea to check with the governing body over radio communications in your country to see what rules and laws apply in your country or internationally.

 

[elk2370bruce]

On a slightly different note, I don't know how things work in the US.

There are fly on the wall programs with rescue services (helicopter S&R etc) and quite often when they arrive on scene they struggle to find the casualty (esp fallen climbers on big cliffs). I can't see the problem with dialing in a marine vhf channel and using that to speak directly to the chopper. All of our S&R choppers are set up for marine rescue as we are such a small place with plenty of sea so marine VHF would seem appropriate until instructed otherwise. (even though marine is illegal to use when not at sea)

AFAIK there is an international agreement on the use of any comms device in life / death emergencies.

But I can see the above points on trying to talk straight to a dispatcher causing problems.

1. Agencies that need to work together across systems for emergency response already have the radios and training in using them safely.
2. We have already discussed the life/death out of band radio use to its own life/death status (dead horse theory)
3. In most areas, there are a number of legitimate communications options to use without modifying radios to operate out of band.

 

[EddP]

I'm in the UK. Sorry if I was digging up something with the life death thing. I'll try to find the original international agreement about it.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 4

 

[N4CA]

The "life or death" emergency clause only pertains to the service that one is licensed for. An FCC licensed Amateur Radio operator can use any Amateur Radio frequency in an emergency, however an Amateur Radio license does not grant the use of non-Amateur Radio frequencies in any event or emergency. (See post in this thread where this is confirmed by FCC Enforcement Officer.)

The email from the FCC Enforcement Officer had nothing to do with emergency communications.


Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 4

 

[N4CA]

To lend a little more credence, here's what the latest Ham Radio License Manual from AARL says on page 6-26:
"In an emergency situation you may use whatever communications means it's at hand to respond - any means on any frequency. If a fire department radio or marine SSB transceiver is all that's available, by all means use it to call any station you think might hear you!"

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 4

 

[ThomasMcKean]

To lend a little more credence, here's what the latest Ham Radio License Manual from AARL says on page 6-26:
"In an emergency situation you may use whatever communications means it's at hand to respond - any means on any frequency. If a fire department radio or marine SSB transceiver is all that's available, by all means use it to call any station you think might hear you!"

This would match my own understanding as well.

But on the other hand, if yew are gonna call or an emergency, yew better be DOGGONE SURE it really IS an emergency yew are calling about!

 

[AK9R]

To lend a little more credence, here's what the latest Ham Radio License Manual from AARL says on page 6-26:

The ARRL staff is knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to amateur radio rules. However, the FCC is the final authority, not the ARRL.

"...If a fire department radio or marine SSB transceiver is all that's available, by all means use it to call any station you think might hear you!"

Note that they are talking about using a radio that is otherwise legal to use in that radio service, not a modified amateur radio transceiver. This thread is about the legality, or illegality, of transmitting with an amateur radio transceiver outside the amateur radio bands.

Let's say you are driving down the highway and come across an accident scene where a police officer has driven off the road and hit a tree. The officer is injured and needs immediate medical attention. In this scenario, I see nothing wrong with using the police officer's radio to call his dispatcher requesting assistance. On the other hand, pulling out your modified amateur radio transceiver to call his dispatcher in that same situation is a completely different matter.

 

[SCPD]

The ARRL staff is knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to amateur radio rules. However, the FCC is the final authority, not the ARRL.


Note that they are talking about using a radio that is otherwise legal to use in that radio service, not a modified amateur radio transceiver. This thread is about the legality, or illegality, of transmitting with an amateur radio transceiver outside the amateur radio bands.

Let's say you are driving down the highway and come across an accident scene where a police officer has driven off the road and hit a tree. The officer is injured and needs immediate medical attention. In this scenario, I see nothing wrong with using the police officer's radio to call his dispatcher requesting assistance. On the other hand, pulling out your modified amateur radio transceiver to call his dispatcher in that same situation is a completely different matter.

I agree and what you can't get through the people's thick heads that a amateur radio only supposed to operate from 144-148MHZ and there is nor legitimate reason to modify that radio to use for out of band.

From my interpretation what the FCC is referring to in Part 97 rules is you may operate out of your band class say a Tech getting on HF to summon help in a emergency not for a amateur operator to run around with a modified radio they just so happen to have public safety frequencies programmed "just in case" but they you have those who thinks the rules do not apply to them.

I have ran into auto accidents on the road no cell phones only my 2 meter radio gave my call emergency traffic and I was immediately answered and help notified so I do know care to hear those excuses.

 

[WB4CS]

The email from the FCC Enforcement Officer had nothing to do with emergency communications.


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The FCC response included all communications. I don't think there could be any clearer of a response than "don't transmit where you're not licensed or we will fine you!"

On the other hand, for those that still want to cling to the belief that in an emergency you can become the "RF Avenger" and use any radio on any frequency to get help, I encourage you to contact the FCC as I did.

If anyone does contact them, I would recommend that your email to them is brief, to the point, and professional as the FCC is way understaffed and probably doesn't have the time to deal with frivolous questions about a radio service that is on the bottom of their priority list. However, they are the final authority on Amateur Radio rules and enforcement, so I think they should take the time to answer questions. That's why I contacted them, they make the rules and I made an inquiry about the rules.

 

[mmckenna]

To lend a little more credence, here's what the latest Ham Radio License Manual from AARL says on page 6-26:
"In an emergency situation you may use whatever communications means it's at hand to respond - any means on any frequency. If a fire department radio or marine SSB transceiver is all that's available, by all means use it to call any station you think might hear you!"

Oh, boy....
The ARRL is a representative group for amateur radio operators. Key word: AMATEUR. The ARRL does NOT hold authority over the FCC. The FCC has made it clear what the rules are, over and over again, yet some amateurs still have a bad case of whackeritis and will look for any excuse to pretend to be something they are not. Trust me, the last thing that public safety professionals need is a wannabee with his hammy radio. Work within the rules and the system. Amateurs have no authority to decide that their perceived emergency is more important than the real emergencies that REAL (not amateur) public safety professionals are working on. Jumping into the middle of their work puts others lives at risk.

Get over it. Don't confuse your hobby with being a -real- public safety professional. Stay the heck out of the way of the professionals and let them do their jobs.

 

[N8IAA]

Emergency calls via AutoPatch is why most repeaters have this option. If cell phone don't work, patching into the twisted pair will. No need to use frequencies you aren't licensed to operate a modified radio on. As posted, if you are a Tech and the only available radio to transmit on is HF, and it truly is an emergency, then you can use it to obtain help.
Larry

 

[N4DES]

To lend a little more credence, here's what the latest Ham Radio License Manual from AARL says on page 6-26:
"In an emergency situation you may use whatever communications means it's at hand to respond - any means on any frequency. If a fire department radio or marine SSB transceiver is all that's available, by all means use it to call any station you think might hear you!"

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 4

I'm sure the FCC would be interested in seeing that.....

 

[N4DES]

The email from the FCC Enforcement Officer had nothing to do with emergency communications.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 4

Of course it wouldn't note it specifically as it would include it. Don't try and make it something other than it what it actually is, and that is communications with the Rules & Regulations by licensed operators in the spectrum designated by Part 97.

 

[zz0468]

To lend a little more credence, here's what the latest Ham Radio License Manual from AARL says on page 6-26:
"In an emergency situation you may use whatever communications means it's at hand to respond - any means on any frequency. If a fire department radio or marine SSB transceiver is all that's available, by all means use it to call any station you think might hear you!"

If you were to put it in the proper context, this might actually make sense. You're a ham, you're on a boat, there's an emergency... use the radio. I can't imagine a circumstance where you would have access to a fire department radio and there are no firemen nearby to use the radio themselves, but I suppose it could happen.

That statement in the ARRL book could IN NO WAY mean program up your radios, "just in case". Why people continue to think that is incomprehensible to me.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I'm amazed that there is still enough left of this horse's corpse that anybody can still find something to beat on.

Several people have announced quite clearly that they intend to violate the law as soon as they perceive that they have a good enough excuse. Fine. You've made your points. The rest of us will enjoy our peaceful law-abiding existences while you are struggling to pay the fines or serving your time in jail.

 

[Jimru]

Horse's corpses: great band name!

 

[mmckenna]

I'm amazed that there is still enough left of this horse's corpse that anybody can still find something to beat on..

There are a fair amount of people in this land that are completely incapable of understanding when they are wrong. They'll argue to the death, even when it's been proven time and time again as being illegal, immoral and just down right stupid.

It's pure and simple whackerism. Sometimes you have to call the spade a spade.

 

[ThomasMcKean]

I do have some emergency channels programmed into my radio. This is for scanning purposes only.

So nervous am I about it that I even programmed those particular channels so that if the PTT button was pushed, the transmission would go elsewhere (or just be blocked, depending on the radio and the features therein).

So now it is something I don't have to worry about. I can just scan and enjoy.