jparks29
John McClane
You also have people who think the gov't shouldn't tell them what to do, and only obey the 'rules' as a courtesy.
Why is out of band transmit illegal? (was: Stupid question)
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You also have people who think the gov't shouldn't tell them what to do, and only obey the 'rules' as a courtesy.
The one poster said it was legal to use a part 90 Motorola radio for GMRS if licensed for GMRS. There are many people in the area I live in who do, and reading the FCC rules, they are vague. It is for this reason I don't.
The whole small station rule with 15 watt max, when most Motorola radios have 25 or 45 watts.
What is the real answer to this?
Another part of the GMRS rules says 50 watts on the 7 channels authorized for repeater use, which I have read in a proposal that GMRS repeaters might not be legal if the proposal is passed. There are two GMRS repeaters on the mountain next to me that get more use than the VHF and UHF repeaters right next to them.
I agree 100% with most of what I have read and could care less if the chances of getting caught with a Motorola on GMRS is only 99.9999% that I will not get caught, I won't use or have one if it is not legal.
I don't much care for GMRS anyway, the only reason I have bubble pack GMRS is for EMCOMM since so many are buying and using the moto's for that use as well as ragchewing. Many UHF radios also, that I know is illegal.
As a matter of fact, the local LDS church(s) is pushing for it's members to all get GMRS for emergency's. Not sure if they are talking just bubblepack or not.
73's John
The whole small station rule with 15 watt max, when most Motorola radios have 25 or 45 watts.
What is the real answer to this?
Another part of the GMRS rules says 50 watts on the 7 channels authorized for repeater use, which I have read in a proposal that GMRS repeaters might not be legal if the proposal is passed. There are two GMRS repeaters on the mountain next to me that get more use than the VHF and UHF repeaters right next to them.
I agree 100% with most of what I have read and could care less if the chances of getting caught with a Motorola on GMRS is only 99.9999% that I will not get caught, I won't use or have one if it is not legal.
I don't much care for GMRS anyway, the only reason I have bubble pack GMRS is for EMCOMM since so many are buying and using the moto's for that use as well as ragchewing. Many UHF radios also, that I know is illegal.
As a matter of fact, the local LDS church(s) is pushing for it's members to all get GMRS for emergency's. Not sure if they are talking just bubblepack or not.
73's John
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Apparently you can not read or comprehend what you read.In the propsed rule making it show the proposed list of frequencies and it has the same 467.XXX frequencies as it does now saying for control or repeater use go read it again,how did this get started on a amateur post anyways,it is already posted in the GMRS section.I get tired of people trying to interpret thngs in their mind that is not really there.
Folks, this is an Amateur Radio forum and this thread is about transmitting outside the amateur radio bands. Radio Reference has a GMRS forum and it can be found here:
GMRS / FRS - The RadioReference.com Forums
If you have comments about GMRS, post them in the GMRS forum.
GMRS / FRS - The RadioReference.com Forums
If you have comments about GMRS, post them in the GMRS forum.
Thank You W9BU, I sure didn't men to get the OP's panties into a bunch, but there was an earlier reference to the GMRS radio's and since it seems to be such a gray area, I asked a question. Be glad to look in the GMRS section.
I guess this is why I dislike GMRS and try to stay with amateur.
John KF7VXA
I guess this is why I dislike GMRS and try to stay with amateur.
John KF7VXA
KK4ELO
Member
what is the point/reasoning?
For imformational purposes, i do not own a modded radio, nor have a use for it.
I sit here and see thread after thread about modded radios and i cant help but wonder...... why does the fcc still allow manufacturers to make equipment with the ability to be moded. Obviously they have the ability to keep them from txing outside the ham bands. If its not certified or approved to be anywhere other than ham, why make them?
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.
For imformational purposes, i do not own a modded radio, nor have a use for it.
I sit here and see thread after thread about modded radios and i cant help but wonder...... why does the fcc still allow manufacturers to make equipment with the ability to be moded. Obviously they have the ability to keep them from txing outside the ham bands. If its not certified or approved to be anywhere other than ham, why make them?
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.
KB7MIB
Member
Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.80 (BREW; Opera Mini/6.0.3/27.2338; U; en) Presto/2.8.119 320X240 LG VN530)
A lot of older radio models that were capable of this are still floating around. Even if manufacturers and retailers were to end the manufacture and sale of mod-capable radios this calender year, all of those radios still floating around out there will still be there for years to come, until parts for them are no longer available.
This isn't to say that the FCC shouldn't do something about it, just that even if they do, we're still going to see this issue for years to come.
I do agree, however, that at the very least, if they leave wideband receive capability in any particular model, limit the transmit capability to in-band only, with no modification possible.
A lot of older radio models that were capable of this are still floating around. Even if manufacturers and retailers were to end the manufacture and sale of mod-capable radios this calender year, all of those radios still floating around out there will still be there for years to come, until parts for them are no longer available.
This isn't to say that the FCC shouldn't do something about it, just that even if they do, we're still going to see this issue for years to come.
I do agree, however, that at the very least, if they leave wideband receive capability in any particular model, limit the transmit capability to in-band only, with no modification possible.
It is because the US is not the only ones to buy these radios and the US band splits for VHF and UHF is not universal world-wide. There are usually different configurations of the chip jumpers that will give you different band edges and one option that will totally open the radio's TX capability.
Usually these modifications, if done by the end user, voids the radios warranty.
Token
Member
Perhaps I am a bit dense, but why in the world do people want “the FCC to do something about this” when they already do and always have? The regulation says you cannot transmit on frequencies for which you are not licensed or the radio is not type accepted. This is pretty cut and dried. Since ham operators are legally allowed to make ANY modifications they want to their radios, even build them from scratch, as long as they meet the spectral purity requirements, the frequency capability and compliance with the regulations is totally in the operators hands. The alternative to this would be to turn all hams into appliance operators, and make it illegal for them to open or maintain their own radios.
From the very first manufactured ham radios in the early 1900’s they have almost all had the ability to transmit out of band, it has not “gotten worse in recent years”. Some would go only a small amount out of band, others would go a great deal out of band. Often changing a simple plug in crystal would move it almost anyplace you wanted it to go. It was ridiculously easy and cheap to move a crystal controlled 2 meter radio up to the public service or business VHF-Hi band. It was, and is, up to the operator to operate within the regulations. It has only been in the relatively recent past, roughly the last 35 years or less, that radios became “limited” as CPUs became an integral part of the rig.
You cannot make a radio that cannot be modified. You can make one that is difficult to modify. You can make one that is beyond common ability to modify. But if man made it man can change it. And if you did try to build one for the US market that could not be modified then you would have to build another design for the Japanese market, or the European market, or the Australian market, etc, etc, instead of being able to just design one basic model and have quick and relatively easy configuration changes to support those multiple markets.
You think ham radio gear can be expensive now, and that sometimes there are few options at a price point, impose those extra technical requirements along with the certification requirements and see what happens. And you still would not have a radio that could not be modified, only one that was harder to modify and less adaptable to need.
And I personally would NOT buy a ham radio that was an impenetrable block that could never be modified. Because this also means the radio would have several other limitations that I would not want and in order to support such regulation you would need to control who can maintain / adjust such radios (as some other services do now).
1.) I would not be able to work on / repair the radio myself. Yeah, they are getting more complex and smaller, but you still can repair / troubleshoot most radios yourself. SMT does not mean impossible to support in the shack, it only means you change your techniques.
2.) I have used ham radios with transverters that required, or at least were more convenient for, the driver rig to operate outside the “normal” ham bands. Perfectly legal to do and WELL inside the spirit of ham radio as long as I control and am aware of the out of band emission levels.
3.) I do not want a radio that is “future proof”. The ham bands of today will probably not be the ham bands of 30 years from now. Ham bands change over time. Bands are added, subtracted, expand and contract. The most recent example would be the changes to the 60 meter allocation. In the US hams could use 5 specific frequencies within this band starting in 2003. If you had owned gear prior to then and the gear was “unmodifiable” then you would not be able to get on the band unless you purchased all new HF gear. Fortunately most digital based gear WAS easily modified, and hams got on the new freqs quickly. Then in 2011 the rules for this band were again changed, frequencies and allowable modes changed. And again, if the radios had not been modifiable hams would have been forced to purchase new gear before legally using the new abilities. Going back to the early 1980’s the WARC bands (30, 17, and 12 meters) were added to the ham allocations, these were totally new bands for the ham community, and again to activate those bands would have required new radio gear if the existing radios were not, for the most part, easily shifted to these bands. While the VHF/UHF range has been more stable there HAVE been changes. The 2 meter band used to be the 2.5 meter band and down around 112 MHz, the 1.25 meter band has had some turmoil in its past.
Yeah, it is easy to say such band changes are not common. But an additional aspect to a requirement that ham gear not be able to TX out of band would be if they took a small segment of a band away or made small allocation changes (as has happened many times in the past) then your current radio would no longer be in compliance.
We don’t need more codification when the current regulation addresses the problem. If people choose to ignore the current regulations then adding more regulations for them to ignore obviously must be the answer.
T!
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KB7MIB
Member
Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.80 (BREW; Opera Mini/6.0.3/27.2338; U; en) Presto/2.8.119 320X240 LG VN530)
Good points.
So the best course of action would be, if you know of someone who is operating illegally, in whatever way, is to make sure you report them to the FCC for investigation. If you choose not to report them, the issue will not be resolved.
Good points.
So the best course of action would be, if you know of someone who is operating illegally, in whatever way, is to make sure you report them to the FCC for investigation. If you choose not to report them, the issue will not be resolved.
n6dlh
Member
Well as others have said, the US is not the only market, and the band allocation in other countries are different than here. Instead of having to design multiple boards, one board can be made, and the placement of the jumpers sets the TX range.
I reality, as hams we have an obligation and a duty to abide by the rules. Some take that to heart, others do not. The FCC has pretty much given the Amateur community the ability to police itself. We have also been given a lot of trust to be able to build and experiment with our equipment, in no other service is this really allowed. When issues arise with amateur radio operators, the FCC will not get involved until multiple complaints have been filed, and certified letters have been sent. They usually try to let the amateur community try to handle the problem themselves, then step in as a last resort. This will not happen if you transmit out of band, they will take action.
Some people are able to use their ham radio out of band legally. There are a bunch of hams involved in MARS of different facets. The use of amateur equipment that is has certain frequency stability is allowed. Some radio's were manufactured before amateur bands were implemented, so modding them allows the use of allocated spectrum. For instance I modded my IC-706 so I could operate on 60M, and I later used it on Navy/MC MARS frequencies. I recently restored a Globescout that had a band switch for 11m, with a crystal I could put out 25 watts on CB frequencies, back then 11m was an amateur band.
I modded one of my VHF radio's for a reason. The dual band radio is capable of operating on GMRS and MURS, even if it is not legal to do so. My main focus was for emergencies, when hurricanes come in there will be volunteer people using these types of radio's. Some of the CERT teams will have other public service assets that can get help for injured people. My logic is, if I find someone with need of immediate medical service and phones are dead, the CERT team is with EMS around the corner I cam letting them know. I would NEVER transmit on a public service frequency. The reality is if it saves a life, then I will sleep fine. But what if you have your radio modded and sit on the mic? The harmless clipping of that wire may have just cost someone their life. It is a double edge sword.
Now with that in mind, most people that are licensed have the mental maturity to operate a radio that is opened and not break the law. My kenwood dual band I only had 1 public service frequency in it, the local fire dept, but the TX frequency was a simplex 70cm frequency in case I ever key up unintentionally. It really has to do with responsibility. I have since moved ALL my VHF/UHF gear to land mobile radio's, with Amateur frequencies programed, other NON licensed frequencies programed. All public service frequencies that I monitor are RX only and have no programming in the TX field. This eliminates the possibility of ever having a problem. I have most of the marine guard channels programed, and no TX programed on those either. Sure I lost a VFO, but have gained some security, and radio's that are built like a tank. So in actuality, all of my FM radio's will transmit out of band, but none of them do.
The problem I have with this argument is that I can't think of a single country that has a 2m range of greater than 144-148 MHz and a 70cm range of greater than 430-450 MHz. If that's true, then why would the manufacturers need to build a radio with a wider range in order to accommodate global amateur radio markets?
I'm no expert in radio design, but my gut feeling is that a seemingly insatiable desire for wide receive ranges on these radios has resulted in the capability for a wide transmit range. The first 2m handheld I owned would only tune from 140 to 150 MHz. Now, we have 2m handhelds that tune from 132 to 174 MHz and beyond. The downside of this wide receive range is poor resistance to intermod and overload. But, with a snip of a diode or jumper, the radio will transmit everywhere it hears.
Remember when the Radio Shack HTX-202 was released and one of its selling points was that it was a ham-band only radio? No wide-band receive and, consequently, no out of band transmit.
n6dlh
Member
I would have to double check, but I thought there was at least a couple of countries that had a 2 meter plan that was outside ours. IARU band plans do not show that, but not all countries are members of IARU. But since many of the big manufacturers have a solid foundation in Land Mobile gear, it may be a possibility of inherited circuitry from its Land Mobile Brethren.
Oh and you are correct that the Wide band RX by design leads to an ability to transmit. Wide range of frequencies in the PLL, wide BPF's for sensitivity, and many of the RF modules in dual band radio's adds to that.
Oh and you are correct that the Wide band RX by design leads to an ability to transmit. Wide range of frequencies in the PLL, wide BPF's for sensitivity, and many of the RF modules in dual band radio's adds to that.
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nd5y
Member
In many countries 2m is 144-146 and 70cm is 430-440. That is the worldwide allocation. Some countries have larger bands.
In the USA and Canada 2m is 144-148.
In the USA 70 cm is 420-450 but in Canada it is 430-450.
The international amateur band plans can be found at Regions - International Amateur Radio Union
In the USA and Canada 2m is 144-148.
In the USA 70 cm is 420-450 but in Canada it is 430-450.
The international amateur band plans can be found at Regions - International Amateur Radio Union
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KK4ELO
Member
This is the side i take on this. I dont see why they have to make them to where they can be modded. If they can make a wide band receive radio (my thf6 for example) which will receive hf through 1.3 ghz but even when modified will still only tx from, what, 136-174 i think the spread is for vhf and im not quite sure for uhf. Now if it can be designed to stay within those limits, why not design it to stay within the ham bands only?
I personally cant stand the fact that it is so easy for these radios to fall in the wrong hands. I have been a firefighter for several years and have had to deal with the rogue radios on our system. With the problem of no way to keep unauthorized transmissions. i.e. the 2am wake up from someone playing around and keying the radio over and over.
n6dlh
Member
Well that really has to do with the design of the radio and the final stages. Even though the RX may go to 1.3 ghz the final power amplifier will not handle that wide of a frequency range. Although I understand the frustration of people jamming public services, that has a lot more to do with the people and less to do with the radio or the manufacturers of them.
Like what was said earlier, older gear was even easier, there were no limits in place, your limit was based on the oscillator, and your tank circuit. There was no modification needed. Public service radio systems are much more secure than they have ever been. Unauthorized radio's will show up to a system administrator immediately and can be stunned remotely.
Modification and experimentation is the foundation of amateur radio, without that they may as well auction off all of our spectrum, and confiscate our radio's.
milkman21218
Member
If a radio can go out of band it is not the Amateur radio operators problem. Hams POLICE HAMS. Not other services. Check with the FCC. That is why many people hate us today because of us are reporting that I see someone doing something with a illegal radio. Now if and only if they are on or causing problems on a HAM BAND. Then are you to get involved. Not because some one has a illegal radio. That's Laura Smith job. Call her and she will tell you the same. Remember it's Hams Policing Hams not the world. We have nothing to with the guy down the street using that Ham Radio on the 11 meter band. Or the one who uses that HT on GMRS. Because they are not on your band. Just like can't give me a parking ticket for not paying the meter. It's just not our job! Like it or not, it's the truth.
Laura's (717)338-2577
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Laura's (717)338-2577
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WB4CS
Member
I believe another reason why so many VHF/UHF amateur radios are manufactured in a way that can be modified is because of their LMR counterparts.
Take the Kenwood TM-281 and TH-K20A. Both are VHF radios that RX from 136-174. Remove a few internal parts and they TX in that range too. Both of those radios are slight redesigns of Kenwood VHF LMR radios. Most of the PC boards inside are the same used in their LMR lineup. Change up the firmware, change the casing and display, and you now have an amateur radio instead of a LMR radio. Icom and Yaesu also manufacturer LMR radios, so it's conceivable that they use the same boards from LMR radios in their ham lineup. I'm sure it saves production costs.
Token
Member
(nd5y I am quoting your post just for the frequency part, most of my comments are aimed at other issues and not what you posted, more what you were posting in response to.)
A further thing to consider is that not all of the USA is allowed 420-450 MHz on 70 cm (check the A and C lines), some portions of the US are only allowed 430 to 450 MHz. If new ham regulations, or FCC certification, or whatever, required an unmodifiable transmit range that only allowed legal ham frequencies would a person traveling through, or moving to, the area that only allows 430-450, but owning and using a 420-450 MHz rig, be in violation?
The twist that this discussion seems to be taking (one I strongly disagree with) is that it should be illegal for a ham to operate ham gear that has the potential to transmit out of band. Only unmodifiable gear should be legal to sell. Take the requirement to stay legal out of the operators purview and enforce compliance via technology.
Would a person repurposing Part 90 or 95 compliant equipment, say surplus public service or business band equipment, to the ham bands be in violation? How about former military gear? Should a person have to show a radio license before legally purchasing radio gear, regardless of service? If no to this latter, then how could you tell if they should legally be allowed to own a part 90 or ex military piece of equipment? Would radio gear, new or used, have to be sold only through a legal radio dealer to ensure the purchaser had the appropriate authorities to operate? How does the dealer document such sales, maybe via a registration system to prove compliance?
These kinds of restrictions (compliance through hardware requirements) are simply not needed. A rule concerning using frequencies you are not authorized already exists. Experimentation and utilizing electronics not originally intended for ham use is a long standing part of ham radio, as is homebrewing equipment. Regulations that require a radio to be unmodifiable, or prohibits the use of equipment not certified for Part 97 use (no such requirement for certification exist today, except for some amplifiers) would turn ham radio into appliance operators with the limitations that no new techniques or methods would be legal until AFTER they were FCC certified. Might as well just lump it in with MURS, GMRS, or FRS, not to mention this approach has worked so very well in CB.
T!
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