OLD SAFE-T Discussion Threads (2005-2012)

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KD4YGG

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Request For Assistance - SAFE-T Sites & Alternate Control Channels

Okay, now that the system appears to be built out, looking for some assistance with the last four "nails in the coffin" for ALTERNATE CONTROL CHANNELS for the following four (4) sites.

1) Bramble in Martin County
2) Boonville in Warrick County
3) Linton in Greene County
4) Yankeetown in Warrick County

Some options....
1) Run UNITRUNKER or TRUNKER and determine the alternate CC
2) Monitor the site and advise the VOICE channels used (the one that's not the primary CC or a voice channel is the one we're looking for.

Guess the next chapter will be migration to P-25??? Just hope it stays Phase I...
 

ronmcclary

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Is It Me or SAFE-T

I've noticed for the last few days, my UNIDEN BCD996XT has been staying on one frequency all the time. I've tried adjusting the squelch with no change, if I temporarily lock out the frequency it is on, it just stops on another and stayed there.

Is there something with my scanner causing this or is it something with SAFE-T?

FYI ... I'm in the Bloomington, Monroe County area.

Let me know if I need to provide more details (be specific).

Thanks.
Ron
 

kb32

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Are any of these talk groups active?


Indiana Alcohol Beverage Excise Police Talkgroups

3376 IN ABC Central Zone Operations
8304 IN ABC North Zone Operations
16320 IN ABC Southeast/Southwest Zone Operations

Indiana Gaming Commission Talkgroups

36416 Indiana Gaming Commission Central Zone Operations
43840 Indiana Gaming Commission North Zone Operations
53712 Indiana Gaming Commission Southeast/Southwest Zone Operations
 

djbrane

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Are any of these talk groups active?


Indiana Alcohol Beverage Excise Police Talkgroups

3376 IN ABC Central Zone Operations
8304 IN ABC North Zone Operations
16320 IN ABC Southeast/Southwest Zone Operations

Indiana Gaming Commission Talkgroups

36416 Indiana Gaming Commission Central Zone Operations
43840 Indiana Gaming Commission North Zone Operations
53712 Indiana Gaming Commission Southeast/Southwest Zone Operations

Hear traffic occasionally on 8304 and 3376. Excise Police use it as a car to car channel
 

kb32

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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_0_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8A306 Safari/6531.22.7)

ScanNEIN said:
Are any of these talk groups active?


Indiana Alcohol Beverage Excise Police Talkgroups

3376 IN ABC Central Zone Operations
8304 IN ABC North Zone Operations
16320 IN ABC Southeast/Southwest Zone Operations

Indiana Gaming Commission Talkgroups

36416 Indiana Gaming Commission Central Zone Operations
43840 Indiana Gaming Commission North Zone Operations
53712 Indiana Gaming Commission Southeast/Southwest Zone Operations

Hear traffic occasionally on 8304 and 3376. Excise Police use it as a car to car channel

How about the ABC and Gaming talkgroups for Southern Indiana?
 

eaf1956

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Has anyone noticed that the alternate control channels have changed from what is in the RR Database? An example would be Henderson, KY tower Database shows alt ch as 866.7625 but Unitrunker comes up with 867.0375. I'll have to check the other towers that I can recieve to see if they are different.

Unitrunker results:
Evansville Site 5 Pri 868.9125 Alt 867.4375
Yankeetown 21 Pri 868.8000 Alt 867.9875
Marrs Ctr Site 30 Pri 867.4625 Alt 868.8250
Henderson Site 28 Pri 868.5500 Alt 867.0375
 
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AK9R

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Has anyone noticed that the alternate control channels have changed from what is in the RR Database?
If you find errors in the RR Database, please complete a database submission by clicking the "Submit" button on any database page.
 

DiGiTaLD

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Funny in Ohio MARCS users, not jsut OSP, but everyday fire and EMS can talk statewide on their talkgroups. Safe-T doesn't allow it because they don't have the channel capacity.
Ohio is not trying to put every public safety agency in the entire state on one system. Indiana is. Thus they have to limit what groups are allowed to affiliate where. The Ohio MARCS system has a massive amount of talkgroups, but there are quite a few of them that are seldom used, and they don't have near as big a proportion of local users on the system as Indiana does. That's why the restrictions here. You'd be surprised how far out from a site a radio can affiliate and pull traffic through that site, hogging up voice channels. I personally think Indiana's approach to spectrum management is wiser.
What are they supposed to do when they big ones, yes plural hit a section of the State.
First off, depending on the type of disaster, the system probably isn't going to work due to the dependence on terrestrial wired networks, be they copper or fiber. Segments of the system go out on good days due to backbone network outages. This thing depends mainly on T1 data circuits to keep it tied together, and there are sites that are daisy-chained together, so if one goes down, all the sites downstream from it also go down.

Provided the given disaster doesn't knock out the terrestrial wireline network the system is dependent on, there are ten statewide mutual aid talkgroups that can be put into any legitimate subscriber radio on the system and all radios are permitted to affiliate with them on every site in the state. There are also the regional mutual aids that are allowed on every site in their respective ISP district and one site adjacent around that district. There are three of those per ISP district, and actually several more than there are actual ISP districts now since a few districts were eliminated, but their xMA-x talkgroups are still on the system.

NPSPAC is also there, conventional, nationally allocated, and totally independent of the trunked system. All of this is a training issue. Unfortunately a high percentage of system users have no idea what the mutual aid talkgroups and NPSPAC are for or how or when to use them. So many agencies just pass out a radio and battery charger and say, "here you go, here's your new radio." The users aren't trained. Then when something bad happens, the politicians get in there, make an issue of it, and try to persuade us that they can make it all better if they just throw a little more of our money at it. By no means am I saying we haven't made strides in this state. A user can turn his radio on, select SW-CALL, and drive from Angola to Evansville, able to communicate with anyone else on the talkgroup anywhere in the state. However, things are by no means perfect nor are they fail safe. Infrastructure is great, but teaching the users of the system is where it has to happen.

When we have to have "interoperability", by definition we have to make compromises and use a talkgroup or a channel that might not be "ours" exclusively. There are far too many agencies that just want to stay in their own little bubble on the system and never, ever leave their talkgroups. The system was supposed to eliminate this, or at the very least facilitate a change from the old isolationist ways. Instead its the same isolationism, just on a more expensive communications infrastructure.

Just my 2¢.
 

AK9R

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While we are on the topics of interoperability and Project SAFE-T, I recently heard a conversation on SAFE-T talkgroups that is all too familiar. (I'll use fictitious talkgroup names to convey the story without revealing the departments involved.)

A local fire department is dispatched to a vehicle fire on a major highway. The automated dispatch goes out over the VHF firehouse alerting system and over the FIRE-DISP talkgroup. Fire units arrive at the scene and report the situation back to Fire Dispatch on the FIRE-OPS talkgroup. A few minutes later, the incident commander hits Fire Dispatch again on FIRE-OPS to ask for law enforcement to be sent to the scene. A police dispatcher, who is sitting in the same room with the fire dispatcher, keys up on POLICE-DISP to tell a PD unit that a run has been sent to the unit's MDT. The police officer says his MDT isn't working and asks for the run by voice which the police dispatcher provides. A few minutes later, the fire incident commander keys up on FIRE-OPS and asks Fire Dispatch again about law enforcement. The Police Dispatcher keys up on POLICE-DISP asking the officer's whereabouts. Officer replies and then you hear the Fire Dispatcher keying up on FIRE-OPS with the officer's ETA.

All of this leaves me wondering just how much communications infrastructure are we tying up in an effort to put out a car fire and get the thing towed off the highway.

  • Why do we have fire dispatches going out simultaneously over VHF and SAFE-T? Was SAFE-T ever intended to be a firehouse alerting system in an area where most of the vollies are still carrying VHF pagers?
  • Why don't the MDTs work? Is it unreliable hardware, finicky software, or an overloaded wireless network?
  • Why don't we have vehicle locating systems in the public safety vehicles so Dispatch will know where they are without having to tie up a voice talkgroup asking for a unit's location?
  • Why can't police and fire units who are working the same run talk to each other directly? Is there some cardinal rule that would be broken if the fire incident commander was able to key up his radio and talk directly to the law enforcement unit en-route to the scene?
Seems like a lot of communications resources were expended on a simple task. And it also seems as if we are still applying the old ways of doing things even though we have modern technology available.

[soapbox mode=ON]
Granted, the politicians at the state level were convinced to buy off on SAFE-T with the promise that everybody could talk to each other and the promise that it could be the communications solution that local communities were looking for, but couldn't afford. Local politicians jumped at the chance to get access to the state's communications infrastructure without having to fund their own infrastructure. Now that we have public safety agencies all over the state dependent on SAFE-T, the system manager says there's no room for additional radios and maybe no room for additional talkgroups. How much is it going to cost the taxpayers in the state to re-engineer and re-build the state's communications system because we didn't know then what we know now?
[soapbox mode=OFF]
 
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usswood

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While we are on the topics of interoperability and Project SAFE-T, I recently heard a conversation on SAFE-T talkgroups that is all too familiar. (I'll use fictitious talkgroup names to convey the story without revealing the departments involved.)

A local fire department is dispatched to a vehicle fire on a major highway. The automated dispatch goes out over the VHF firehouse alerting system and over the FIRE-DISP talkgroup. Fire units arrive at the scene and report the situation back to Fire Dispatch on the FIRE-OPS talkgroup. A few minutes later, the incident commander hits Fire Dispatch again on FIRE-OPS to ask for law enforcement to be sent to the scene. A police dispatcher, who is sitting in the same room with the fire dispatcher, keys up on POLICE-DISP to tell a PD unit that a run has been sent to the unit's MDT. The police officer says his MDT isn't working and asks for the run by voice which the police dispatcher provides. A few minutes later, the fire incident commander keys up on FIRE-OPS and asks Fire Dispatch again about law enforcement. The Police Dispatcher keys up on POLICE-DISP asking the officer's whereabouts. Officer replies and then you hear the Fire Dispatcher keying up on FIRE-OPS with the officer's ETA.

All of this leaves me wondering just how much communications infrastructure are we tying up in an effort to put out a car fire and get the thing towed off the highway.

  • Why do we have fire dispatches going out simultaneously over VHF and SAFE-T? Was SAFE-T ever intended to be a firehouse alerting system in an area where most of the vollies are still carrying VHF pagers?
  • Why don't the MDTs work? Is it unreliable hardware, finicky software, or an overloaded wireless network?
  • Why don't we have vehicle locating systems in the public safety vehicles so Dispatch will know where they are without having to tie up a voice talkgroup asking for a unit's location?
  • Why can't police and fire units who are working the same run talk to each other directly? Is there some cardinal rule that would be broken if the fire incident commander was able to key up his radio and talk directly to the law enforcement unit en-route to the scene?
Seems like a lot of communications resources were expended on a simple task. And it also seems as if we are still applying the old ways of doing things even though we have modern technology available.

[soapbox mode=ON]
Granted, the politicians at the state level were convinced to buy off on SAFE-T with the promise that everybody could talk to each other and the promise that it could be the communications solution that local communities were looking for, but couldn't afford. Local politicians jumped at the chance to get access to the state's communications infrastructure without having to fund their own infrastructure. Now that we have public safety agencies all over the state dependent on SAFE-T, the system manager says there's no room for additional radios and maybe no room for additional talkgroups. How much is it going to cost the taxpayers in the state to re-engineer and re-build the state's communications system because we didn't know then what we know now?
[soapbox mode=OFF]

what you have described are the 'Old Ways' and not what should be trained in the 'New Ways' with the New technology that we have today...everything goes back to thinking along the same lines as when everything was VHF and VLF...single repeater use and not stepping on other traffic on a one channel/Freq system...Now that it has changed...'Old Ways' of doing things have not! At least around here, most LEOs do scan there radios, so most are aware of Fire Dispatches and runs , other Agency calles that they might be close to for assistance...but there are still dispatchers that don't want units doing exactly what you just described either...
 

eaf1956

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Verification

If you find errors in the RR Database, please complete a database submission by clicking the "Submit" button on any database page.

I was trying to verify the correctness of the information prior to submission. I was the one who submitted the Yankeetown Alt channel info and now it has changed. It would be improper to change DB information based on one person as this would cause chaos in my opinion.
 

kevin.r

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I've noticed for the last few days, my UNIDEN BCD996XT has been staying on one frequency all the time. I've tried adjusting the squelch with no change, if I temporarily lock out the frequency it is on, it just stops on another and stayed there.

Is there something with my scanner causing this or is it something with SAFE-T?

FYI ... I'm in the Bloomington, Monroe County area.

Let me know if I need to provide more details (be specific).

Thanks.
Ron

I just noticed your post. See my thread with a somewhat similar issue in Bloomington:

http://forums.radioreference.com/in...3-bloomington-safe-t-site-866-2500-issue.html

You may be having the same issue I had, which was resolved by setting the Digital End Code detection: Digital End Code detection - The RadioReference Wiki.

My guess is that what you were locking out was actually talkgroups, not frequencies.

Since this problem affects multiple scanner users on the Bloomington site, and it just recently started happening, I'd venture to guess there's some sort of problem with the transmitter not unkeying on 866.2500 MHz sometimes after user transmissions are done.

Kevin
 

DiGiTaLD

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what you have described are the 'Old Ways' and not what should be trained in the 'New Ways' with the New technology that we have today...everything goes back to thinking along the same lines as when everything was VHF and VLF...single repeater use and not stepping on other traffic on a one channel/Freq system...Now that it has changed...'Old Ways' of doing things have not! At least around here, most LEOs do scan there radios, so most are aware of Fire Dispatches and runs , other Agency calles that they might be close to for assistance...but there are still dispatchers that don't want units doing exactly what you just described either...
Alas, as far back as the late 1950s, there was the concept of interoperability in Indiana. I'm sure this article has been linked before here, probably several times, but it is an interesting read given the context of what we are seeing now with SAFE-T.

History of Plan-A

Further, the concept was to enhance intercounty coordination and mutual aid across the state. Prior to this time, every county and city police department that had two-way radios that were scattered all over the place on VHF-Low Band; hence, no common statewide interoperability existed.
Doesn't that sound exactly like what we were told was the reason we all had to go to SAFE-T?

I swear, I think they do this crap on purpose just to sell radios.
 

jerk

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The concept is a good one...
even scanning other talk-groups is good...
but when you are responding to an emergency and thinking size-up, mutual aid, water supply, safety, positioning the apparatus, etc, plus you don't practice it on a daily basis, it just becomes something that is more trouble than usability or function or even a thought in your mind, there are much more important things that have to be done than talking.
 

usswood

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The concept is a good one...
even scanning other talk-groups is good...
but when you are responding to an emergency and thinking size-up, mutual aid, water supply, safety, positioning the apparatus, etc, plus you don't practice it on a daily basis, it just becomes something that is more trouble than usability or function or even a thought in your mind, there are much more important things that have to be done than talking.

time for dispatchers to fill the gap....PATCH baby PATCH...dont make emergency responders worry about what talkgroup there on when they can all be patched together...then tell them your PATCHed and can go direct with the CIC or the Fire Chief
 

eaf1956

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Boonville Site 20

Okay, now that the system appears to be built out, looking for some assistance with the last four "nails in the coffin" for ALTERNATE CONTROL CHANNELS for the following four (4) sites.

2) Boonville in Warrick County
What is going on on SITE 20 Boonville? BTW the alt CC is LCN 996 868.3000

Running Unitrunker on site 20 I get:

LCN FREQ
123 854.0875
242 857.0625
533 864.3375
626 866.6625
655 867.3875
718 868.9625 Control
816 867.0250
963 867.4750
970 867.6500
996 868.3000 Alt CC

Any idea what is going on with this site?
 

eaf1956

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Site 20 Boonville

Unitrunker added 2 more

LCN 95 Freq 853.3875

LCN 998 Freq 868.3500

Site 20 now shows 12 channels???? Rebanding maybe?
 

eaf1956

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Site 20 Boonville

Hold off on any FREQ changes for SITE 20. The ALT CC seems to be correct but my god I get 12 channels on that tower. I deleted all but the CC in UNITRUNKER and I will let it run for a while and see what comes up.
Seems like every 20 minutes it adds something else, and it seems to be carrying traffic from some counties up North of here. I don't have the best signal on this site either.
 

eaf1956

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Site 20 Boonville

Trying to upload a screenshot. It may not work! Anyway this is a PDF of Unitrunker on Site 20 Boonville
 
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usswood

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looks like they have add several rebanded Freqs, probably for more voice channels to be available for users...too many busies down there! :)

Pretty much the same thing they did up here on the 038 Tower for THPD and THFD when they made the switch to Safe-T
 
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